The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members of both Parliaments to order.

1. Joint debate with the Welsh Youth Parliament

If I could have your attention, please, so that I can particularly welcome 39 Members of the Youth Parliament, who are joining us today in the first joint session of its kind, and, perhaps, the first ever session where a national parliament has met jointly with a youth parliament.The Youth Parliament is not yet a year old, but it has already matured and evolved in a way that we can all be very proud of, and the priorities of that Youth Parliament are innovative, thoughtful and bold. We're all looking forward, I'm sure, to hearing more about the Youth Parliament during this afternoon’s session. We will also be discussing and voting on a special motion, which outlines the core principles of the relationship that will develop between the Youth Parliament and this Assembly, as the important work of representing the interests of young people in Wales proceeds.
So, without further ado, I introduce the motion, and call on Maisy Evans, Youth Parliament Member for Torfaen, to tell us more about the significance of that motion. Maisy Evans.

Motion NDM7100 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes that the Welsh Youth Parliament’s work for the duration of its first term will focus on the following issues:
a) mental health and emotional wellbeing;
b) life skills in the curriculum; and
c) littering and plastic waste.
2. Confirms the Assembly’s commitment to support the work undertaken by Welsh Youth Parliament Members to engage young people across Wales.
3. Agrees the joint declaration outlining the Assembly and Welsh Youth Parliament's commitment to work together on behalf of the young people of Wales.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It’s a great privilege and an honour to be speaking in the Siambr on this momentous day, and it’s wonderful to see Assembly Members and Welsh Youth Parliament Members together on such a historic day in Wales.
The Welsh Youth Parliament met in this Chamber for the first time in February this year, and we were given the opportunity to speak about issues that matter most to us as young people in Wales. The contributions made were passionate, varied and sincere. I chose to speak about life skills in the curriculum, and the issues raised included sex education, finance and, primarily, political education and citizenship, given that the political opinions of Wales’s young people on politics has changed in recent years. In the context of Brexit and fake news, young people are in a more vulnerable position than ever before, as such matters and issues can have a direct effect on our future. Quality education based on the politics of Britain, and more broadly, will ensure that the future generations will be protected.
As has already been mentioned, the issues that we decided to prioritise during our first two-year term are: emotional and mental health; littering and plastic waste; and life skills in the curriculum My colleagues will elaborate on the work taking place within each of these areas in due course. For our work to be effective, and for the Welsh Youth Parliament to represent all the young people of Wales, it is vital that there is a relationship between us and the Assembly. The declaration, which I shall read out shortly, outlines the principles for both organisations to work together and what young people in Wales can expect from us. The Welsh Youth Parliament recently voted to agree the declaration, and we have just held an event at the Pierhead to outline the importance of today, in ensuring that our work is considered by the Assembly. This is the declaration of the Welsh Youth Parliament and the Assembly:
This declaration sets out the principles for the relationship between the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Youth Parliament, to ensure that young people in Wales have a voice at the highest level. The Welsh Youth Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales will collaborate to: ensure that issues, decisions, and the work of the Welsh Youth Parliament are led by its Members and the young people they represent; ensure that the Welsh Youth Parliament’s work is integral to decision making and democratic structures in Wales; continue to improve the ways in which young people are involved in decision-making processes in Wales, in accordance with article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which states that young people have the right to express their views freely and have their opinions listened to; commit to the rights of young people to access the support needed to engage with the work of the Welsh Youth Parliament, and encourage them to work, communicate and engage in both of the Assembly’s official languages; ensure that young people can contribute in an accessible, inclusive and safe environment; and to operate under the principles of openness and transparency, providing good-quality, clear and accessible feedback on the contribution of young people to the work of the Welsh Youth Parliament and Assembly business. [Applause.]

Thank you very much.

The next speaker is Jonathon Dawes, a Member for the Vale of Clwyd. Jonathon Dawes.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. To begin, I do have to say that it's a real privilege for me today to be in the Chamber to talk about the really important issue to young people of life skills in the curriculum. And I thank the Welsh Youth Parliament for giving me this fantastic opportunity. As many Welsh Youth Parliament and Assembly Members know, since my election, and, in fact, even thinking about before I was elected, I have been an advocate for life skills in the curriculum, and I am very honoured to talk to you today about the Welsh Youth Parliament's work and my work personally on this real key issue.
After the Welsh Youth Parliament's first Plenary session in February, Members voted life skills as one of our top three issues, and I was very happy that Members supported this key issue after passionate speeches from Members across Wales. Collectively, as a youth parliament, we have taken steps to make real change for young people on this issue. Recently, we have created life skills committees, which have representatives from each region of Wales. In May, we launched our life skills survey for 11 to 25-year-olds during the Urdd Eisteddfod, and have organised two consultation events on life skills—one in north Wales, and the other in south Wales. All of these free actions will help us get a broad range of views from young people on what they want to see in the new curriculum, and then we will debate these in the October Youth Parliament Plenary session. I would like to encourage Assembly Members to share our survey on social media, like many already have, and attend these consultation events, to get the views on what should be in the new curriculum in terms of life skills from people who will be experiencing the new curriculum but who have also experienced the current and past curriculums, because, ultimately, this will help us learn from the mistakes of the old curriculum but also the good points when designing a new one.
In terms of me personally, this is a passion of mine, but it's by far the issue I get contacted about by young people on social media, and young people who live in my constituency. Since my election, I have spoken to hundreds of young people, and they all agree with me—life skills should play a dominant role in the new curriculum. They do feel that, despite spending 13 years in full-time education, they don't have the adequate skills that will help them achieve their potential in later life, including financial and political education. But it must be said, when I do speak to young people about the curriculum—and they are very passionate about this issue—the life skill that's brought up with me the most, that they all want to see, is CPR and basic first aid.
Many AMs across this Chamber have quite rightly championed this issue, but I and other Welsh Youth Parliament Members support the ongoing British Heart Foundation campaign for CPR to be included in the 2022 curriculum, and I do hope that the Government do think about this after the consultation period. It's important we do take a broad range of views from young people and that these views are considered at the highest level, and this is why being here in the Chamber today, in front of all the Assembly Members, is a massive step.
The curriculum does present us with a real opportunity to change it for the better, and some Welsh Youth Parliament Members have met with education Minister, Kirsty Williams, to share their opinions and represent the views of young people in their areas on this real pressing matter. We have all been contributing to sharing the current consultation on the new curriculum, and I believe that, to achieve a curriculum that addresses the improvement of life skills, amongst other things, we must work together, cross-party, with the Welsh Youth Parliament, to ensure Wales's new curriculum is something we can all be proud of. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Our next speaker is Sandy Ibrahim, partner elected Member for Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales. Sandy Ibrahim.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm Sandy Ibrahim, and I represent the EYST organisation in the Welsh Youth Parliament. Today, 26 June, as I and many other people know, is an important day not just for a specific person, but for the whole Welsh Youth Parliament. So, today in my speech I'll be going through the work of the emotional and mental health committee and will give an overview of where we are and what our future plans are.
As the majority of us today will know, mental health problems affect one in 10 young people. They include anger, depression, loneliness, panic attacks, stress, anxiety and conduct disorder, and are often a direct response to what is happening in their lives. But in order to reduce this number and help every single young person, we all need to work together.
I am really proud to say that a massive amount of work has been taking place in Wales to look further into the issue of the emotional and mental health of young people. And mainly that's what we all want to see—positive work, and hopefully positive results. In April 2018, the 'Mind over Matter' report was published. This is basically a report on the step change needed in emotional and mental health support for children and young people in Wales. And exactly last week, the Assembly held an evidence session to follow up on this specific report.
Moving on, working on the mental health committee and also finding ways of improving positively obviously can't be the work of just the Welsh Youth Parliament on its own. Mainly, it will be all of us getting closer to organisations, people or even young people, working together to make this change and reach what we want to reach, and thankfully, until now, we have seen a lot of interest from organisations all across Wales, including Gofal, Mind Cymru and a few others too. Also, we are looking forward to start working closely with them through our theme of work.
Within the emotional and mental health committee, we have started taking actions to look at individual issues within this broad point, and in the future we will work more towards and also analyse which areas we want to specifically focus on. Through our time in here, we will obviously need to work with specific organisations, and we have started to look a bit further into that theme too in order to analyse who will be the key organisations that will work with us.
So, lastly, before I close my speech, I just wanted to say that, as much as I'm interested, I'm sure the whole Welsh Youth Parliament Members are interested in starting to hear from as many young people as possible, and also to make sure that we are focusing and working on the issues positively and, most importantly, effectively. Thank you. [Applause.]

I call now on Anwen Rodaway. Anwen is the partner elected Member for Learning Disability Wales. Anwen Rodaway to speak.

Before I begin, I wish to take a moment to thank the Llywydd for the opportunity to address the full Assembly in the Chamber today.

I am Anwen and I represent Learning Disability Wales on the Welsh Youth Parliament. I am a member of the littering and plastic waste committee and today would like to give you a brief overview of where we are and what our plans are for this first term of the Welsh Youth Parliament.
At our most recent regional meeting, we formed committees to consider each of the three areas we have decided to work on. These brainstorming sessions were very productive and have given us a good starting point for understanding what the issues are, and we have some initial suggestions for moving forward.
Members of the littering and plastic waste committee discussed personal experiences and opinions. We shared information on activities we have personally been involved in to address reducing the amount of littering and plastic waste, as well as other examples of best practice we were aware of.
Some Members have been involved in litter picks both in school and within the communities they live in. Others have been involved in initiatives in their schools. For example, one Member’s school has introduced recycling stations around the school so students can recycle their plastic bottles, paper, cardboard and food containers when they were previously unable to. It is important to share these examples of best practice and encourage our own schools to make positive changes.
It is very important to us that we have a full understanding of the issues young people across Wales would like us to address. We have started to engage with the young people of Wales and are beginning to have conversations around why littering and plastic waste is so important to them and what their top priorities for action in this area are.
As well as these priorities, it is very important to us that our work within the Welsh Youth Parliament and the littering and plastic waste committee takes into consideration research done by other bodies and organisations, including the important work done by the Assembly.We are very encouraged by the decision to declare a climate emergency and the commitment to work to develop a plan for a carbon-zero future for Wales. We hope to work with you to bring the voice of young people in Wales to inform this plan. The community I live in have recently joined you in making their own declaration. I have joined the community working group with other young people in the community to make sure young people’s concerns are heard.
The Youth Parliament are aware of the recent report by the National Assembly’s Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee into the effects of microplastic and plastic pollution. It is vitally important we tackle not just the plastic we can see, but also the vast amount of microparticles and fibres we cannot. We commend the committee for this report and wholeheartedly agree with the conclusion of this report that Wales cannot waste another day in the battle against plastic pollution. The time to act is now. Diolch. [Applause.]

I call on the First Minister, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, thank you very much, and thank you very much to all Members of the Youth Parliament. It’s a huge pleasure for me to participate in this important debate today, and I'm grateful to the young people who have contributed. Thank you to each and every one of you for your thoughtful and intelligent comments.
Wales leads the way on children’s rights and young people’s rights, and the Youth Parliament is another important example of how we can strengthen our democracy by including you, as young people, in our discussions. You have a unique viewpoint and we need to hear your comments on the major issues facing Wales today.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, in what we've heard already, I think the really heartening thing is to see the way in which the agenda set out by Members of the Youth Parliament chimes so well with the preoccupations of the National Assembly itself: the declaration of a climate emergency—the first national Parliament anywhere in the world to take that step; and the importance of mental health and well-being. It's very important indeed for us to hear today from someone representing young people with learning disabilities here in Wales. It's 100 years this year that we celebrate the foundation of learning disability nursing here in Wales. We've always, as a nation, had a particular interest in the well-being of people who have to make their way through life with a mental health condition that others are fortunate enough not to need to encounter.
As far as life skills in the curriculum are concerned, it's a reminder to us of why we are acting to extend to 16 and 17-year-olds in Wales the right to vote in local and National Assembly elections, because participation in democracy is a life skill by itself—it's something that you have to learn; it's something that you have to get used to. And the case for extending voting rights in Wales has been rooted in the belief that young people in our education system will now be properly prepared for those democratic duties, given the life skills that theyneed in order to be able to do that. We know that giving young people a voice in our democracy will encourage lifelong voting habits and greater participation in our democratic processes.
The involvement of Members of the Youth Parliament here on the floor with us this afternoon is a concrete example of the way in which we want to see our democracy develop into the future, giving everybody a stake in the future that we create here in this Chamber, and we're very grateful to you all for taking the time and the trouble to be with us this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr. [Applause.]

I now call on representatives of the political groups. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and it’s a pleasure to speak on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives in this important debate. May I say, Llywydd, that the creation of a Welsh Youth Parliament is one of the greatest successes of the National Assembly for Wales? It is so important in terms of strengthening the voice of young people here in Wales.
I would, first of all, like to thank Members of the Youth Parliament who opened this debate for their excellent and intelligent addresses. It is entirely clear that their contributions were well researched and were very considered, and they have certainly given usa great deal to think about as we consider how we, as Assembly Members, tackle some of the most important issues facing our society.
Of course, the first topic that the Youth Parliament has chosen to focus on is mental health and emotional well-being, which is a crucially important issue for everyone in Wales. On this side of the Chamber, we are eager to see more work done to encourage stronger preventative measures and early intervention. For example, we want to see schools the length and breadth of Wales taking steps to develop mindfulness awareness in their school, and we want employers to look at how their businesses can provide greater support to those living and working with mental health conditions.
We already know that agriculture has one of the highest suicide rates, and therefore I do think it’s fair to say that any one of us might find it difficult to cope with mental health issues at some point in our lives. It doesn't matter where you live or where you work, we are all human and we can have difficulty with anxiety and stress at any time in our lives. So, it’s crucially important that the Welsh Government’s approach to dealing with mental health encompasses all policy areas, so that the Welsh Government considers the impact that its strategies could have on the mental well-being of people when they introduce strategies for the economy, the environment and housing.
I'm extremely pleased that the Youth Parliament has chosen life skills in the curriculum as its second priority, because my fellow Members and I have been campaigning for this for some time. My fellow Member Suzy Davies, for example, has been leading the way in calling for defibrillators to be placed in our schools, and to teach important first aid skills, such as CPR, in schools across the country. My fellow Member Mark Isherwood has also been calling for adding British Sign Language to the national curriculum, and for better access to sign language services for children and young people in health and public transport. And Members will be aware that I have called for better support services for children and young people who have difficulties related to autism, including training for the education workforce, so that learners with autism do have access to appropriate support and care through the education system. 
Finally, Llywydd, I’m pleased that the third priority of the Youth Parliament is to tackle littering and plastic waste. This topic certainly has come to the top of the political agenda recently because of programmes such asBlue Planet, which have raised awareness of this issue among the public. There are plenty of examples of good practice the length and breadth of Wales in dealing with littering and plastic waste, but clearly we need to do more to encourage those activities. And we all have responsibilities as individuals to be far more responsible in how we tackle this huge problem. We are all extremely fortunate to live in such a beautiful nation, but if we are to retain that beauty for the young people here today and for future generations, then it is crucial that we do everything that we can to safeguard the environment and to keep it clean.
So, in concluding, Llywydd, may I on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives thank Members of the Youth Parliament who have already spoken for their contributions, and also all Members of the Youth Parliament for the good work that they have already done in the brief period that’s passed since their election? I look forward to hearing more from the Youth Parliament on their priorities for the future, and to work closely with them in order to develop ideas and to ensure that those ideas are delivered. And, of course, we on this side of the Chamber will be supporting the motion before us today. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

On behalf of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I know that I speak on behalf of Members of every party in saying how pleasant and wonderful the spirit is in the Senedd today, and it would be good to be able to feel this vibe in your company, as Members of the Youth Parliament, many times again in the future.
There are many topics in politics that can be quite depressing. Whether during my career as a journalist or as a politician myself, apathy has been an issue that has caused me great concern. More recently, intolerance in politics is something that should worry us all. So, having something that we can truly celebrate in politics is very pleasant indeed, and seeing the formation and following the early development of our national Youth Parliament is something that is a topic of great pride for us all. A Youth Parliament that provides an opportunity not only for young people to voice their views, but to raise awareness amongst young people throughout the whole of Wales about the political and parliamentary system that we are all part of, and impacts on all your lives, and of course a Youth Parliament that’s a platform to have real influence on decision making. Your Parliament is a platform to assist and support young people, through you, to take part in those decisions that will shape all of your futures. I look forward to seeing that becoming more and more evident as the voting age is extended to those between 16 and 18 years of age.
So, it’s wonderful to see that you've started work immediately and started by putting a clear focus on three topics that are important to you. Differently to previous generations, your generation has understood the importance and value of talking about mental health. The understanding of mental health conditions is better than ever, and I think that the pressure from the Youth Parliament can ensure that research and support and mental health and well-being services will be a totally integral and core part of the education, health, career and social experience of young people the length and breadth of Wales.
Of course, the focus on life skills in the curriculum is a very important area. Growing from being a young person into adulthood is excellent. You're obviously enjoying this period in your lives—I remember it with great joy myself—but there are many challenges during that period, such as being financially responsible and taking care of your own health or other people’s health through CPR and so on. But, yes, let’s ensure that the support that you want is there for you through the education system.
Then there’s the increasing awareness of our wasteful way of living, which is very encouraging too. You, as young people, are taking the lead in so many ways, particularly on the use of plastic. With your assistance, Wales can get rid of some of our thoughtless and lazy ways of living.
So, good luck to you. Remember that the support and platform of the Assembly will always be here for you, but it’s also important that we don't intervene too much in your work, and allow you to lead the way.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Go for it. The reins are very much in your hands; you are firmly in control. It's been a pleasure to share this Senedd Chamber with you today. Thanks for raising all our spirits today, and we all look forward to seeing your accomplishments through the Youth Parliament of Wales and way, way beyond. [Applause.]

The Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: I, too, would like to give a warm welcome to our Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament. I strongly suspect that some of you here today will be elected to join us in the Assembly in due course.
Unfortunately, too often, the positive cross-party work that goes on in the committees, in the adjacent rooms to this Chamber, is not widely reported. Headlines are made when cross words are exchanged in this Chamber. On much, including the issues that the Youth Parliament has highlighted, we are, however, agreed.
As we heard earlier—and thank you—the Children, Young People and Education Committee produced a report on the changes we need to see in mental health support provision for young people in Wales. I was on that committee and I was extraordinarily impressed by the work of the Chair of that committee, the Member for Torfaen, Lynne Neagle. Lynne is a Labour Member and we have our differences, most obviously in this Chamber on Brexit, but I've spent at least as much time agreeing with her on the issue of mental health support for young people, and I've nothing but praise for her work in this area, including her role on the task and finish group set up by Welsh Government.
When I was a teenager, and I'm sure other Members of the Assembly would agree, discussing one's emotional well-being was not as commonplace as it is today. We are pleased to see that the Welsh Youth Parliament is contributing to an atmosphere in which young people can get support more easily, because there is still stigma, if less than there was, and there are also still gaps in support. As Lynne said in her foreword to the report 'Mind over matter':
'It is estimated that three children in every average size classroom will have a mental health issue. By the age of 14, half of all mental health problems will have begun.'
We are all concerned about this, and we all must do more as an Assembly, as must Welsh Government, if we are genuinelyto treat mental health equally with physical health, which I believe is the ambition of us all.
I would particularly value the input of the Youth Parliament on how much the greater reported incidents of mental health problems reflects greater willingness to be open about this issue, or the degree to which it reflects greater pressures on young people today, with the rise of online bullying and the pressures of social media.
To finish, and I hope she will not mind, I'd like to again quote the Member for Torfaen's words on mental health from the committee report:
'This is a subject that touches us all, and an area in which we all have a responsibility—and an ability—to make change happen.'
Colleagues, let's reflect on the good that we can do when we work with each other, let's come together on the issues in this motion, and let's make those changes happen. [Applause.]

I will now call on Welsh Youth Parliament Members from each of the regions. First of all, Ifan Jones, Member for Ynys Môn. Ifan Jones.

Good afternoon, all. Being a Member of the Welsh Youth Parliament over the past few months has been a privilege, and I've been able to make friends with these amazing young people. In the north Wales region, we have been working together on a number of topics, including life skills in the curriculum, and we will be holding an event with other young people at Glyndŵr University soon, to hear their views on the topic. It’s extremely important that the voices of all young people are heard despite their distance from the capital city, and I'm very proud to be able to represent Ynys Môn and ensure that the voices of the young people of my area can be heard in the Assembly.
We've also been having discussions on mental health and what we as a Youth Parliament can do in order to support young people who have to face a nightmare in trying to access the appropriate support. We've had meetings with a number of Assembly Members, including Rhun ap Iorwerth and Ann Jones, which have been very interesting, as we found out more about their role, and saw their support for the Youth Parliament.
Although we’re here today to celebrate, we must remember that there are 200,000 children in Wales living in poverty, hundreds have to wait months for mental health support, and the world around us is being destroyed by climate change. We, as Welsh representatives, must work together to create a better and more equal country for everybody. We have a duty to ensure that the young people of Wales have the best possible start in life. We shouldn't have to wait months for mental health support. We shouldn't have to suffer in poverty. We shouldn't have to worry about our future. Thank you. [Applause.]

The next speaker is Alys Hall, the Member for the Rhondda.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm extremely grateful to be here today to celebrate such an important occasion in Welsh history, namely the first joint session between the Youth Parliament and the Assembly—the first session of its kind in the world—and that is during the twentieth anniversary of devolution. I'm here representing my fellow Members from South Wales West today.
Since our first meeting back in February, we as Members of the South Wales West region have undertaken a number of different engagements with young people. Some Members have hosted school assemblies on the work of the Youth Parliament, while others have held smaller sessions with individuals, small groups and local youth groups. Most of us have also met with many of you, the Assembly Members, to discuss problems in our areas or just to chat about the causes and organisations that we support.
About a month ago, I had a meeting with Leanne Wood, where we discussed period poverty and the lack of support for pupils and young people with mental health problems. We take our role of representing the voice of young people in our local areas seriously, and we're grateful for the range of opportunities through the Youth Parliament to ensure that these voices can be heard.
As a region, our committees have met to discuss how we can drive forward the causes selected by the Youth Parliament, namely life skills in the curriculum, littering and plastic waste, and support for mental and emotional health.
Our main focus at the moment is life skills in the curriculum, given that the new curriculum will be introduced next year. In order to gather the views of young people in our region, we as a Youth Parliament have published an online questionnaire. We also look forward to next month’s event, where teachers, pupils and youth groups have been invited to participate in question-and-answer sessions and a variety of workshops. This event, in Swansea, will enable us to gain the perspectives of people from across the whole of south Wales on the issue of life skills in the curriculum, and it will also enable them to speak to us and many other people, such as Lynne Neagle, about the topic.
To conclude, I’d like to thank you again for listening to me today and for all of the support that you, as Members of the National Assembly, have afforded us to date, and will continue to give us during our term as Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]

Our next speaker is Angel Ezeadum. Angel Ezeadum is a partner-elected Member for Race Council Cymru, and speaks on behalf of the south-east region.Angel Ezeadum.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm Angel Ezeadum and I'm here to represent the South Wales East region. Firstly, I would like to reiterate what a significant day this truly is as we are all gathered today to celebrate 20 years of devolution in Wales.
Regarding the work of the region, in our regional meetings we shared our hopes and aspirations about our work as Welsh Youth Parliament Members. The main consensus was that we hoped to make an impacting difference to Wales’s youth and empower the voices of young people. In our latest meeting, we formed the three committees based on the three key issues voted in at our session in the Chamber. Research was then undertaken to see what the National Assembly had already done or were doing to tackle the issue, in order to avoid any overlaps. We then discussed our goals and the steps we would have to take to be successful.
The Youth Parliament has used events such as the jamboree in the Senedd and the Urdd Eisteddfod in May to further promote our work and receive comments from a diverse range of children and young people. The use of technology, in particular with the life skills in the curriculum survey, has enabled us to reach a huge sum of young people in Wales, and in doing so, increase the participation, ensuring that we truly do give the youth a voice.
As a resident of Cardiff, I have worked alongside the elected representatives of the Cardiff constituencies and other partner-elected Members from Cardiff on tackling the issues in our city. We have met with many Assembly Members, such as Andrew R.T. Davies, who was the first to reach out to us, and Jenny Rathbone, who helped us with our speeches for the Chamber. Thank you to all of those who took time out of their busy schedule to meet with us.
Whilst this event is about celebrating how far we have come, it is also an opportunity to look forward to the future. This is just the beginning of our work for the Welsh Youth Parliament and I am looking forward to developing over the next 18 months, alongside my fellow Members, to shape a better Wales for our generation.
I am proud to be a Welsh Youth Parliament Member, and, so far, it has been great to be a representative for them. Thank you. [Applause.]

The next speaker is Cai Phillips. And Cai Phillips is the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Cai Phillips.

Thank you, Llywydd. Good afternoon, and it’s a very good afternoon here in the Senedd. My name is Cai Phillips, and I'm a Youth Parliament Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Today is an historic and important day as it gives us the opportunity to meet and work with the more 'senior' Members. On one side, we have experience and wisdom, and on the other, enthusiasm and new ideas. We hope that we can work together to solve some of the big problems that face us as a nation. It is also a day to celebrate 20 years of devolution, and, of course, it was Carmarthenshire's ‘yes’ vote that ensured the establishment of a Welsh Assembly.
I am very proud to represent my fellow Members in the Mid and West Wales region. This is a very beautiful area, with beaches, mountains and countryside. There are seven members in the region, namely Arianwen, Lois, Caleb, Emily, Rhys, Ellie and me. We are the magnificent seven of the region, and since being elected we have met twice, and have discussed contentious issues that are important to young people, and in particular the three issues chosen at our first parliamentary meeting.
It is good to report back that we received a positive response from the young people of our region. Members have raised awareness of politics and created an interest in local, national and international issues. We are certain that our presence on social websites has helped to raise the profile of the Youth Parliament’s work. Despite this, there is nothing better than meeting our peers face to face and having conversations about what is important and what concerns them, for example through the excellent work of the youth county councils, such as the one in Carmarthenshire. Also, a number of Members have visited schools and establishments in their constituencies. In addition, Members will also be attending some of the biggest summer events, such as the National Eisteddfod and the Royal Welsh Show, in order to gather the views of young people, and I am personally looking forward to hearing the views of young visitors at the show. These ways of engaging with young people ensure that everyone has the opportunity to have their say.
The event and declaration today will give the Youth Parliament a solid foundation for years to come. It gives Members of the Youth Parliament certainty and confidence to carry out work in their local areas and within their committees. And the work carried out will be purposeful, as the Assembly will listen and act on what the young people have to say. We look forward to the challenge. Thank you. [Applause.]

I now call on the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee to close the debate—Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It is a genuine honour to close today's momentous debate and to have the opportunity to thank everybody who’s been involved, over many months and years, to help us reach this important point in the history of our democracy here in Wales. It’s impossible to pay tribute to everyone individually, but our gratitude is significant nonetheless. Our particular thanks must go to the Welsh Youth Parliament Members. Having you here today with us is a genuine privilege for the Assembly. And can I say, from one inaugural Member of the Assembly in 1999 to all of you as inaugural Members of your Youth Parliament 20 years later, it’s great to be amongst the first?
Today marks a significant milestone in our work as a National Assembly and a Youth Parliament. Our commitment to working together as representatives of the people of Wales, across their ages, is one I warmly welcome as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. It’s clear from today’s discussions that, as two elected bodies, we share the same ambition. Our aim is to enable our people, whether young, old or anything in between, to live happy and healthy lives. I firmly believe that working together will provide us with a better opportunity of realising that ambition for the people of Wales. There is great truth in the old saying that the whole is often greater than the sum of its parts. It is apt that as we approach the thirtieth anniversary of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and in the year that the office of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales celebrates an eighteenth birthday, our Youth Parliament begins its work.
The three priority areas you have identified have the potential to transform lives for the better. As many people know, the emotional and mental health of children and young people is an area particularly close to my heart, and I thank the Members who have made reference to the committee’s ‘Mind over matter’ work today.
I know I speak for all of us when I say that we are looking forward with great excitement and hope to watching your progress and seeing the outcomes of your hard work. But it is my firm belief that we shouldn’t only sit on the sidelines and watch your progress. Our committee has already benefited greatly from engaging with the Welsh Youth Parliament on proposals to remove the defence of reasonable punishment. Hearing the views of children and young people has been important to us in all elements of our committee’s work, and we look forward to building on this during the Youth Parliament's two-year term and beyond. I would encourage all other committees and the Youth Parliament to continue this mutually beneficial interaction. We have lots to learn from and share with each other.
I’d like to close today’s joint proceedings by re-emphasising article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, already referred to by Maisy Evans, Welsh Youth Parliament Member for Torfaen, so eloquently in her opening address. Article 12 states that young people have the right to express their views freely and have their opinion listened to in all matters affecting them. The establishment of the Welsh Youth Parliament and the signing today of the joint declaration, setting out the principles of how we will work together, is a huge milestone in our journey towards achieving that ambition. So, I will close by wishing all of us well in our joint endeavours.

Lynne Neagle AC: Good luckto us all, and thank you, all.

In accordance with Standing Order 11.15, the Business Committee has decided that a vote will be taken at the end of this debate. And the Youth Parliament has already agreed the joint declaration, and I call for a vote of the National Assembly on the motion on the joint declaration. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the joint declaration on working with the Youth Parliament is unanimously passed by the National Assembly.

NDM7100 - Joint debate with the Welsh Youth Parliament: For: 48, Against: 0, Abstain: 0Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Thank you to everyone and we will bring this session to a close and will reconvene at 14:30. Thank you. [Applause.]

Plenary was suspended at 14:15.

The Assembly reconvened at 14:30, with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

2. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

We move to questions to the Minister for finance. The first question is from Mandy Jones.

The Invest-to-save Scheme

Mandy Jones AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on the effectiveness of the invest-to-save scheme? OAQ54110

Rebecca Evans AC: Since 2009, the invest-to-save scheme has invested £180 million in over 190 projects across the whole of Wales. It continues to provide financial assistance to Welsh public services and third sector organisations to help them improve their services and provide better outcomes for the people they serve.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you for that answer. I note that the invest-to-save scheme has invested around about £174 million since 2009. I also note that Betsi Cadwaladr is currently in receipt of over £3 million. Given that invest-to-save is an interest-free loan and repayable, and given that our public services are all struggling financially, how do you ensure repayment of the sums owed, and has the scheme hit its target in any way in terms of the savings achieved?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for asking that question. The portfolio of invest-to-save projects has a really wide range of repayment profiles. For general projects, the longest repayment profile is six years, and there are several being more than that. However, energy efficiency projects, for example, can be repaid within eight to 10 years. But, as I say, it depends on the project. But I can reassure you that the fund does have a 100 per cent recovery rate to date, with no bad debts being incurred since the creation of the fund in 2009.

Mike Hedges AC: Invest-to-save has been successful over a period of time, but it mainly involves safe investments, certain, or almost certain, of producing savings. Alongside it, a more ambitious programme of innovate-to-save has been introduced—something I asked for over several years. Will the Minister provide an update on the effectiveness of the innovate-to-save scheme, and on whether any projects have been so successful that they have been taken up by other bodies?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Mike Hedges for raising that; he's long been a champion of both invest-to-save and innovate-to-save. The innovate-to-save initiative between the Welsh Government, Nesta, Cardiff University and the Wales Council for Voluntary Action launched in February 2017 with a budget of £5.8 million. In March of this year, we added an additional £0.5 million to the budget, to take it up to £6.3 million. It does differ from invest-to-save in that the payment is non-repayable grant funding for projects selected to go through the research and development phase. Non-financial support is available in project management from Nesta, and research support available from Cardiff University. There is a real focus there on ideas that are at different stages to invest-to-save. These are projects that need to be researched and tested to assess whether or not the anticipated outcomes are likely to be achieved. Round 1 of the programme saw three projects being approved for loan funding, one of which was Leonard Cheshire, who were awarded £1 million to roll out their new model of care for people in receipt of direct payments. Fabric, in Swansea, has begun purchasing properties for implementing their semi-supported step-down accommodation for young people over the age of 18 who are leaving the care system. Llamau are also in negotiations with public sector partners to put in place a new and more sustainable funding model for the benefit of the people who they serve. Certainly, there are projects there that we could look to be upscaling in due course, and we'll be learning very much from the work that those projects are undertaking at the moment.

Nick Ramsay AC: No discussion on invest-to-save is complete without a question from Mike Hedges—I think you've asked a question on it every time it's come up. Minister, I think this is one of those issues that is universally accepted across the Chamber as generally a good idea, and invest-to-save and its successor have a huge role to play in contributing to savings in local government and generating more cash. But I think I'm right in saying that, in 2014, five years into the scheme, Ministers commissioned Government social research to undertake an independent evaluation of invest-to-save. And that found that, whilst there were savings across the board, there were some areas where savings hadn't been delivered as expected. I wonder, now that we are 10 years into the project, and looking at successor schemes, do you plan on commissioning any further independent research to discover where the scheme has worked and areas where it can be improved?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as you say, there was some research—an independent study, in fact—in 2014, which concluded that, on average, the fund generates a benefit of £3 for every £1 spent on that scheme. A frequent question, as Nick Ramsay says, is why good practice just doesn't seem to spread very easily, and this is something that we're working on with Cardiff University. We're researching the barriers, and also the enablers, for the spread of the good practice that we've learned through the innovate-to-save scheme. The evidence-gathering stage of that will be completed by 30 June, and then there will be the analysis of the findings throughout the summer. We've secured £4,000 of research funding in Cardiff University, which can be used to support events with academics and practitioners across Wales to discuss our findings and to highlight the benefits that we've been able to accrue through the invest-to-save scheme, and to try and ensure that those benefits are spread more widely.

The Disposal of Public Sector Property Assets

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the disposal of public sector property assets? OAQ54117

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government supports the principles of good asset management, including surplus asset disposal processes. Through published guidance such as 'Managing Welsh Public Money' and the continued work on asset collaboration led by Ystadau Cymru, we seek to embed best practice across the Welsh public sector.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Best practice is all good in theory. The transformation of public services across Wales has seen the disposal of some property assets. However, considerable estate remains, including the 137 surplus properties owned by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The cost of maintaining this estate has now been estimated at £838 million over a 15-year period. Now, when considering that this health board sees the biggest deficit out of Wales, and seven NHS health boards at the end of 2018-19 are also seeing deficits, such expenditure does seem unsustainable and inappropriate. Now, there is a theory—you can correct me if I'm wrong—that if they do sell some of their assets no longer required, money comes back to the central pot here. So, one could argue, in businesses terms, with the health board already now into the fifth term of special measures, perhaps it's not on their main list of their priorities, having to deal with this. What steps can you take as a Welsh Government to work with the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and maybe, just maybe, look at any revenues that come from the disposal of those surplus assets actually going back in some way—not all of it, maybe, but some of it—so that they can actually use the money that is tied up now in those surplus buildings towards better outcomes for the patients in north Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: There is a financial limit at which health boards can retain the funds for any assets they dispose of, but above that limit then, the funds do come back to Welsh Government. And I think that's only right in the sense that the Welsh Government will have the overview across the whole of the Welsh public sector, and the Welsh NHS, in order to understand the pressures that are arising at that particular time. However, we have provided access to an online resource, which brings together guidance and advice for public sector estates work. The Ystadau Cymru group is pan-public sector group, working with health boards on encouraging the different public sector bodies to share and learn from their experience. We've got the asset collaboration programme in Wales, and during the last two financial years, funding has been made available to them in order to help drive their asset management improvements. But that also includes data quality, which can identify assets that those organisations can dispose of. But on the basis of what you've said to me today, I will ask the Chair of Ystadau Cymru to have a conversation with Betsi Cadwaladr health board to see if there is more work that they can do and that Welsh Government can do to support them in identifying assets that could be sold.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Jenny Rathbone AC: Janet Finch-Saunders raised important issues, but I just want to look at this from a slightly different angle. In the context of the climate emergency that we've declared, we obviously need to reduce our food miles and encourage more people to grow their own or source their food locally. So, I just wondered, when you're considering surplus assets, whether you might consider the provision of new allotment sites for people close to where they live, where there are none available, because that would enable people who don't currently have a garden, don't currently have a place to grow their vegetables, to be able to do that. So, I wondered if you'd let us know whether you'd give that sort of thing any consideration in these things.

Rebecca Evans AC: The current key criteria for consideration when considering how to manage assets or dispose of assets include creating economic growth, delivering more integrated and customer-focused services, generating capital receipts, reducing running costs and decarbonisation of the public estate. But Julie James, Ken Skates and I have been doing a piece of work that looks across the Welsh public sector, particularly in terms of the land that we own, to see if we can take a much more strategic approach to that in the light of the First Minister's election manifesto, where he did say that he wanted to set up a division for land within Welsh Government, and then look at how we can work in a collaborative way with local authorities, with health boards and others who do have land or assets within their portfolios. And part of that work will be about redefining how we think of value for money. So, it's not about selling off a plot of land or an asset for the best possible price, but actually it's about considering value for money in the round—so, thinking about our responsibilities in terms of climate change, but also what the benefit could be for the local community. Your example is one of those things that certainly will be part of that mix in terms of considering best value.

David J Rowlands AC: Cabinet Minister, the saga of land at Lisvane in Cardiff being sold for £1.8 million by the regeneration investment fund for Wales, and subsequently sold for £39 million, has been well documented. But we understand that legal proceedings were issued in December 2017 against the two companies who were advisers to RIFW at the time, namely Amber Fund Management and the Lambert Smith Hampton group. Could the Minister update us on the latest situation with regard to these legal proceedings?

Rebecca Evans AC: I was the Minister in charge of that portfolio when those legal proceedings were taken forward. Unfortunately, they are still ongoing. So, as such, I am unable to update now, but I know the Minister for housing, who now has this within her portfolio, will obviously be keen to update Members as soon as there is something that we are able to say.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Following the cancellation of the black route, will the Minister provide us with an update on the borrowing capacity that was available to the Welsh Government, conditional on it being spent on the M4 relief road? Is that funding still available now that that plan has been scrapped?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for the question. You'll recall that the funding that would have been earmarked for the M4, should the decision have been made to make the Orders, was up to £1 billion. But we have to remember that actually that £1 billion related to £150 million of borrowing that we're able to draw down on an annual basis up to a maximum of £1 billion. You'll have heard the Minister for Economy and Transport's recent statements—and the First Minister's statements—where he said that it will be the task group or the commission that is currently looking at ways in which to alleviate and address the transport and the congestion problems in and around the area of Newport that will have the first call on that funding.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The question I was asking was about the principle, in fact, of the UK Treasury telling Welsh Government how it should be spending its money. There's no justification for the Treasury dictating to the Assembly or Welsh Government what its priorities should be. I think the command paper, 'Financial Empowerment and Accountability', published alongside the Wales Act 2014, said that
'Within the overall and annual limits, the Welsh Government will be able to borrow for any capital purposes without HM Treasury consent. Welsh Ministers will therefore have the autonomy and flexibility'.
The fiscal framework also says that
'There remain no restrictions about how the Welsh Government can use its borrowing powers'.
But we did end up with this conditionality. Now, the First Minister, when he was finance Minister, requested additional powers over borrowing, and there was specific reference in the letter to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to borrowing to help fund the M4. And the result was the UK Government saying, 'Okay, you can have the money, on the condition that you spend it on that'. Does the Government now regret writing the letter in those terms? And if this Minister was in that position, would she have written the letter in the same way?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, what I did do was write to the Treasury last year seeking an increase in our borrowing limit, which, as I said, is currently £150 million a year, sequentially up to £1 billion, to help deliver our investment priorities. And when we talk about borrowing, when we talk about our capital fund, we talk about it in the round. So, we don't borrow against a specific project or a specific scheme. We borrow to increase our available capital in order to deliver our portfolio of priorities and projects for that year and years beyond.
In the UK Government budget last autumn, the Chancellor said there'd be a review of the Welsh Government's borrowing powers at the spending review and that they would consider whether the limit should be increased up to £300 million. However, that spending review has been delayed by the UK Government, so it's not clear when that will take place. But certainly, a priority in those discussions, which come around the comprehensive spending review, will be about our borrowing capacity.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I still maintain that mistakes were made in Welsh Government setting a trap for itself, which the UK Government then triggered, and I want assurances that such mistakes can't be made again.
Would the Minister agree with me that now is the time, considering the delay, if you like, and the need to spend money on the M4 now, to have a reaffirmation of the general principles of the fiscal framework and other inter-governmental agreements, which allow and secure full flexibility to Ministers in Welsh Government, and will the Minister agree to pursue that as a matter of urgency with the UK Government so that we don't find ourselves in the same position again?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as I say, I've already started these discussions in terms of our borrowing limit. But I'll be issuing a written statement later this week, which talks about the statement of funding policy, and that's a discussion that I started in my first quadrilateral with other finance Ministers, and with the support of the Scottish and Northern Irish administrations, which looks at a much more fair and much more transparent allocation of funding from the UK Government to the nations. But, as I say, I'll be making a further announcement on that later this week, or a further statement, I should say, on that later this week.
With regard to funding that would have been spent this year, it's only in the region of £20 million, which would have been expended on the M4 project should the decision have been made to go ahead with the black route, but, as I say, in future years now, we will look to see how best to spend that money with the first call being to address the issues around Newport.

The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can the Minister provide an update on the funding allocations being made available across portfolios to progress the decarbonisation of the Welsh economy?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Nick Ramsay very much for that. We're having the start of our discussions now in terms of the preparation for the 2020-21 budget. Obviously, we don't yet have a budget for that. We're having discussions in terms of the priorities that we would wish to see across Government. In each of the discussions that I've had with my colleagues, I've discussed our response to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the importance of addressing a climate emergency, so this is very much front and centre of the work that we're doing.
The First Minister has asked each member of the Cabinet to lead on addressing a cross-cutting issue within our programme for government, and Vaughan Gething has been asked to lead on the decarbonisation piece of work. So, that is about looking across Government to make sure that we are maximising what we already do and also to see if there are further ways in which we can maximise our contribution to decarbonisation.
I've just come this morning from a meeting of the Cabinet sub-committee on decarbonisation. That's been meeting for around two years now. It's been very much at the forefront of developing our work in terms of cutting our emissions, and our response to the UK's Committee on Climate Change report and so on.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Minister, I'm pleased to hear that progress. Ministers across departments have been making the right noises on decarbonising. Lesley Griffiths has said,
'just as Wales played a leading role in the first industrial revolution, I believe Wales can provide an example to others of what it means to achieve environmental growth.'
And she went on to talk about the importance of tackling climate change. That's all great, but, at the same time, you mentioned the future generations commissioner, who has said in a report that we are,
'lagging...behind other countries...in some key areas such as...public transport, active travel'.
In other words, areas, which, over the longer term, can really assist with reducing our carbon footprint as a country. So, I appreciate that this is a budget-setting exercise, probably, but in terms of a strategy for deciding those allocations in advance of that process so that departments know that they're going to get funding specifically to reduce carbonisation, how are you ensuring that that will happen?

Rebecca Evans AC: That's part of the discussions that I have with individual Ministers in seeking to understand their priorities within their portfolios as to how they would use the funding that they have and their responsibilities and the areas that they have to respond to in order to take forward our responsibilities in terms of the climate emergency.
I'm familiar with the future generations commissioner's discussion paper. I think it's an interestingand useful starting point for a discussion, but I do think that, at the same time, you have to have those discussions about the fact that, if you're identifying £1 billion of funding that is needed, well, where does it come from? Because, as I say week after week in the Assembly, our funding has been constrained and it's much lower than it was even 10 years ago. So, we have to have those discussions about where funding will come from, what activities will stop or what activities we'll divert funding from. And the second point of research that I think has to come from the commissioner in terms of her paper as well is to identify exactly what the carbon savings would be for each of those projects and each of those spending priorities that she's identified within the paper as well. I look forward to continuing those discussions with her at our next meeting.

Nick Ramsay AC: Minister, the report that I referred to—and you have as well—also highlights that, while the Welsh Government's low-carbon plan contains 100 policies, only around 1 per cent of the Welsh Government's budget can actually be identified as specifically for decarbonisation. Would you agree that, probably, we need to be a bit more ambitious in the future with trying to get that percentage up? If I could just ask you about a couple of specifics, the First Minister, I think at last week's or the week before last's questions, spoke about plans for a new Welsh forest as part of creating a carbon sink so that we're not just looking to reduce our emissions but also looking to try and take some carbon out of the atmosphere as well. Could you outline funding that's been made available for that forest at this early stage and whether you've had any discussions with the environment Minister, as it would be I assume, in terms of where—. I think that forest isn't going to be in one place, so I think that there are going to be aspects of it across Wales—so, just how that's going to be funded.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising that, and this is a particular area of interest for the First Minister. It's another item that was in his First Minister's manifesto. I haven't had a direct conversation about the national forest with the environment Minister, but I have been in contact with her officials who have been advising me on what the potential cost implications could be for that because, obviously, you need the capital investment but, actually, when you do plant woodland, there's a revenue impact and a revenue consequence for that on an ongoing basis as well. So, I've been seeking to better understand the funding implications with the support of the Minister's officials.

The Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: I welcome the Minister's engagement with Assembly Members but also wider civic society, who are interested in this issue, around tax devolution and, in particular, the really significant issues around the yield from the Welsh rates of income tax. I know she's speaking on Tuesday at the Wales Governance Centre, and also thank you for organising your own conference on 19 July, which I'm looking forward to attending.
The Finance Committee had Robert Chote from the Office for Budget Responsibility come in last week. You're paying, I think, £100,000 a year for work from the OBR in response to what was done by Bangor University. I was quite struck to learn at the Finance Committee the extent to which the primary responsibility for the tax forecast, and the numbers and the model that drove that, rest with Welsh Government but then OBR come in and challenge that and give a measure of quality control. But it's a huge responsibility.
We have this £1 billion so-called 'black hole' with Scottish income tax revenues and, although we haven't changed that—the Welsh rates of income tax is an area where the Government has stuck by its manifesto pledge to keep those the same—that doesn't mean that the tax yield can't change very significantly for matters potentially outside our control. You had Mark Drakeford negotiate the fiscal compact, which I think other parties and Members were complimentary about, but there are still huge uncertainties about how these revenues will develop. I just wonder what lessons the Minister is learning from what's going on in Scotland with this £1 billion so-called 'black hole' and, in particular, whether she thinks there's a case for needing a greater level of contingency and reserve in the spending estimates going forward, given those uncertainties and what we're seeing with Scotland.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising the issue of, as it's called, the '£1 billion black hole' in Scotland as a result of their moving to the Scottish rates of income tax. Obviously, it takes a number of years for that reconciliation in tax to be undertaken. So, it's only now that they're understanding really the impact. I think part of the reason why I can take some heart from the way in which we're doing things differently in Wales is because we do have the OBR scrutinising our figures and advising us there, whereas in Scotland it was the Scottish Fiscal Commission. So, we have the same organisation as the UK Government has scrutinising their figures. So, I think that they use, obviously, the same methodology and are able to consider the same impacts. So, I think that that does give us some protection rather than using two different organisations with two different methodologies to understand and analyse the data.
As I said, I met with the Office for Budget Responsibility. It's something, obviously, we will take a very close interest in. We're less exposed, again, than Scotland because we only have the 10p rate of income tax devolved to us, whereas the situation in Scotland is quite different because they have different powers devolved to them in respect of income tax. But, obviously, reconciliation and the importance of accurate and good data is something that we're, obviously, as you would imagine, holding as a high priority because we don't want to be in a situation in years to come where we find that we are having to pay back money that we had factored into our budgets over a number of years.

Mark Reckless AC: I don't suggest that the Minister is complacent and, clearly, the OBR has a reputation that it has developed, but I'm a little cautious of thinking just because we have the OBR rather than our own commission that necessarily its performance will be better, because we're only funding it to the tune of £100,000 a year and they do not have the specific experience of the Welsh economy and thinking carefully about how Welsh revenue might diverge because it hasn't been necessary to think about that to the same degree before because the issue has not been of the significance that it now will be. So, I just caution the Minister to the extent that her department is primarily driving this and the OBR is coming in and giving its view and giving some views, but that must be a relatively limited given the £100,000 budget compared to the £1.6 million to the Scottish Fiscal Commission.
I ask, going forward, as to the sensitivity of this issue in terms of what the forecast is but also if the tax rates were to be changed, what the impact of that would be, and, in particular, the sensitivities along the border as to whether people might move either physically themselves or the reported income on which they would be paying tax. I know that it's an issue of great significance to Welsh Government and I'm sure you have a number of officials who are working very carefully on this, but it's also of huge significance to other parties in the Assembly, and as we get closer to the upcoming Assembly election, a little under two years, parties will want to think very carefully about what their policies are going to be for their manifesto, and a big input into that will be what those sensitivities are, what the risks around them are, and I just wonder what more the Minister and Welsh Government can do to share and open up the expertise they have in-house to the input of others, but also, perhaps, to give some common assessment on which political parties can talk about the impacts of their proposed tax policies.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, we have developed a very good relationship, I think, with the OBR, and they've certainly been keen to support us as we develop our new taxes, for example, in terms of modelling what they might be for us when we do get to the point at which we are able to provide them with some parameters for the research work.
But I think that, as the Member says, as we move towards the next Assembly elections, it will be for all of our individual parties to set out what we will seek to do with income tax. So, if we were to raise it, what would we spend the additional funding on, and if we were to reduce it, where would the cuts fall? Because, of course, for every penny that we increase or decrease the rate of income tax by, that would have a £200 million impact on the Welsh budget. So, I think that we all need to be very mindful of that. But I don't have concerns about the service that we are receiving from the OBR. I think that we're working very well with them, but, were there concerns, I would certainly raise them directly.

A Community Bank for Wales

Russell George AC: 3. What consideration did the Minister give to facilitating the creation of a community bank for Wales when formulating the Welsh Government's budget? OAQ54102

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government supports the principle of establishing a community bank for Wales. The Welsh Government’s budget allocated resources to support new businesses. It will be for the Minister for the Economy and Transport to make any offer of seed funding to a community bank.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. Obviously, in January, you did say to me then that the Welsh Government was at some very early stages in discussions with a number of stakeholders who were keen to explore the feasibility of establishing a community bank. Last week, the First Minister reiterated that the Government was indeed working with partnerswho were also preparing a full market business plan. I would be grateful if you could give some detail in terms of what sums of money will be allocated from the Government's budget in terms of the creation of a community bank. The First Minister has said that he wants the community bank to be in place before the end of this Assembly term, which, of course, is less than two years away. And I'd also be grateful if you could perhaps provide your own assessment of what public subsidy you think would be required to set up the community bank for Wales, as is being outlined, and also if you are aware of any grant or loan that has been requested of the Government in terms of setting up the community bank for Wales.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising the community bank idea. Of course, we do support the principle of establishing a community bank, and developing this is a priority for us. By means of an update, the Welsh Government officials met, and the Development Bank of Wales met with potential stakeholders in the third sector and the private sector last year, including the Public Bank for Wales Action Group, and they're seeking to establish a community bank for Wales. We've provided advice on the process that would need to be followed in order to access seed funding.
Officials are now reviewing a specific proposal and a request for seed funding from the Public Bank for Wales Action Group, working in collaboration with the UK-wide Community Savings Bank Association. Seed funding would be used by the Public Bank for Wales Action Group to initiate a phase of work that would include stakeholder engagement, market assessment, and feasibility for a community bank for Wales, which will then progress to application for a banking licence. An application for a banking licence can take quite some time—two years or more, sometimes—in order to have the necessary work done with the Prudential Regulation Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority. But I think it is too early to identify just how much capital funding we would be putting towards that and what element of subsidy might be needed on an ongoing basis. But that is all part of the work that is going on, but as I say, it is quite early days in terms of the project being scoped and discussions taking place with stakeholders.

The Property and Asset Strategy

Alun Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's property and asset strategy? OAQ54111

Rebecca Evans AC: Our corporate asset management strategy was published in 2016 to bring greater transparency to our approach to managing Government land and property assets. I'm committed to ensuring that the assets we hold as a Government deliver public value and actively support our objectives across Government.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that. In an earlier answer to the Member for Aberconwy, you said that you wished to invest in best practice in the management of the Welsh Government's asset portfolio, and you also encourage the sharing of experience and knowledge. Can I ask you to be a bit more proactive and ambitious than that, Minister? It appears to me that the Welsh Government, alongside the national health service and local government and other parts of the public sector, have enormous value in the assets and properties available to them, but it also appears to me that there is very little proactive management and proactive ambitious management of the assets in the ownership of the public sector as a whole. I'd be grateful, Minister, if you could outline to the National Assembly how you would seek to ensure that this management of assets takes place on a far more joined-up basis, on a more ambitious basis, and if you could outline to us what the objectives are and the targets for the management strategy that you have in place.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as I say, the corporate asset management strategy has been published, and I'm happy to provide the Member with more information. But it is fully aligned to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 in its ways of working and well-being goals. And, in fact, it's very much designed to support the Act's challenge that Government decision making should be more holistic. It's about taking a broader perspective and recognising the interdependencies that exist and the importance of working together to maximise public value for money and the impact of corporate decision making. And that particular piece of work should ensure that we are maximising the policy outcomes.
I don't think there's a lack of ambition in this area because all of our departments have asset management strategies of their own, and I'm currently going through those at the moment to ensure that I'm satisfied that they meet our objectives across Government rather than just simply meeting individual department objectives.
We're also developing best practice for acquisitions as well, because we know that we do, from time to time, need to acquire land and buildings, and we need to ensure that that is done with the appropriate transparency and due diligence. There's a lot of work going on in this area. I referred to the work that the Minister for the economy and the Minister for local government and I are doing to change our approach to the land that we hold in Welsh Government to ensure that when it's disposed of in those cases, it is done so in a way that meets our cross-Government priorities, rather than simply being about the bottom line.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Will the Minister update the Assembly on the progress of legal action being taken by the Welsh Government against the two firms that give advice on the sale of publicly owned land by the regeneration investment fund for Wales, which resulted in a financial loss for the Welsh taxpayer? Your progress report will be highly appreciated.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. I was able to advise David Rowlands earlier on during questions this afternoon that I was the Minister who was in the portfolio when that action was instigated, and as yet the legal action is still going on, but the Minister now with responsibility, Julie James, will certainly update Members when there is something to update. Because it's an ongoing process, I'm afraid I can't comment further today, sorry.

The Land Transaction Tax Rate

Mark Reckless AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's assessment of the effect of the higher 6 per cent land transaction tax rate in respect of commercial property? OAQ54112

Rebecca Evans AC: The first annual statistics for land transaction tax, covering 2018-19, will be published tomorrow. However, provisional outturn figures indicate that LTT non-residential revenues, amounting to £72 million, were higher than in four of the previous five years of stamp duty land tax. We will continue to monitor the impact of all Welsh taxes.

Mark Reckless AC: Gosh. Well, I shall try and contain my excitement in looking forward to seeing these numbers tomorrow—thank you for letting us know that. What I will ask, though, is: the Minister or her predecessor has increased the rate for properties over £1 million in the commercial sector from 5 per cent to 6 per cent, and that sort of increase of a fifth will not lead to higher revenues if the base of transactions falls by a similar amount or more. And I've been concerned that, at least in the early quarterly data, there is evidence that that has happened. Could I ask, going forward—and there will be interaction with the Office for Budget Responsibility around what the forecasts are going to be, as we discussed earlier—will Welsh Government, in the interests of transparency and accountability, publish what the forecast tax take is for each of the bands for both residential and non-residential LTT?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, as I say, we will have the outturn data tomorrow, which we can look at in terms of the first year, and we always seek to publish as much information as we can, as we turn to our budget setting, so that we're able to have that scrutiny in committee as we undertake the budget-setting work.
I will say, though, that I know the Member has been particularly concerned about the higher rate of non-residential property transactions, but a lot of the data that is reported by industry analysts, so property investments, which are often share transactions rather than land transactions, and they're not liable for land transaction tax or stamp duty land tax. And so, the tax will have no effect on those transactions. So, any attempt to compare those two particular items aren't possible.
I will say that there are other reasons why companies will seek to base their businesses in Wales, and it's not all about the level of tax rates that we have. There will be access to a skilled workforce and the price of land, for example, is an important consideration when properties for non-residential purposes are bought. So, there are a wide range of factors in this, but obviously we'll continue to monitor the situation closely.

David Melding AC: I urge you, Minister, to look at the situation in Scotland, because companies there making similar sized purchases to the ones in Wales will be paying 4.5 per cent—that's below the English rate and, obviously, 1.5 per cent below ours. The month they made that decision, they saw their revenue increase by an amount that was highest on record, and their yearly rise so far stands at something over £13 million. So, I think there's a real lesson here about the level that is optimum for these taxation rates.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. And we will always seek to achieve the optimum level. I know in Scotland, when land and buildings transaction tax was first introduced in 2015, it had a higher non-residential top rate of 4.5 per cent, as David Melding said, and that was a higher rate than the previous stamp duty land tax at the time, but tax revenues in Scotland then increased. The following year, the UK Government increased the top rate of SDLT to 5 per cent, and tax revenues in Scotland then decreased, despite having a relatively lower rate there. In December, the Scottish Government announced it will be increasing its top rate to 5 per cent, which is forecast to increase tax revenues. So, I think it is important to look at what's happening in our neighbouring nations, but always to take the decisions that are best for us in Wales.

Swansea Bay University Local Health Board

Dai Lloyd AC: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about financial accounting and audit at Swansea Bay University Health Board? OAQ54131

Rebecca Evans AC: I have regular discussions with the Minister for Health and Social Services on the financial positions of all NHS Wales organisations, including Swansea Bay University Health Board.

Dai Lloyd AC: Last week, we heard that Abertawe Bro Morgannwg, which is now called the Swansea Bay University Health Board, has again failed to meet its financial duties. The health board has overspent over a period of three years and as a result of that, the auditor general had to qualify his views on its accounts for the year 2018-19. Although ABM health board had improved its financial situation as compared to last year, what else will the Welsh Government do to ensure that this overspend is dealt with and eradicated for the future, and that services are provided on a sustainable basis?

Rebecca Evans AC: As Dai Lloyd says, the overspend in Swansea Bay University Health Board reduced from £32.4 million in 2017-18 to just under £10 million in 2018-19, and that's an improvement of £22.4 million. The health board did meet its Welsh Government control total of a maximum deficit of £10 million in 2018-19. Swansea Bay University Health Board is currently forecasting that it will break even in 2019-20.

Suzy Davies AC: Based on the figures that you quoted to us just now, I'm not 100 per sure how a brand new board can show a track record of three years, but, on the face of it, the new board is going in the right direction. But do you know how much of that reduction in deficit is due to the removal of any debt attributable to the activities in the Bridgend end of operations—those operations, of course, having been moved now to Cwm Taf? What I'm trying to get to is whether this is a displacement of debt into a new health board from the previous one. Also, perhaps you can give us some indication of, now that this board is much smaller, how much less it will be getting from Welsh Government compared to the previous Abertawe Bro Morgannwg board, bearing in mind that it is no longer responsible for the Bridgend county borough constituents of mine.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising that question. I'm afraid I don't have those exact figures with me this afternoon, but I will be sure that the health Minister writes to you with them.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Council Tax

Caroline Jones AC: 7. Will the Minister outline the steps the Welsh Government is taking to reduce council tax bills in South Wales West? OAQ54115

Rebecca Evans AC: Our council tax reduction scheme supports around 280,000 households with their council tax bills. We've been working with local authorities to develop clear and consistent advice on this scheme, and the other discounts and exemptions available, to ensure all households receive the support that they're entitled to.

Caroline Jones AC: Minister, my region has seen an average increase in band D council tax of 60 per cent since 2007. Over that time, inflation has only averaged around 2.5 per cent. Over the same period, people have seen their refuse collections halved, day centres closed, libraries closed and leisure centre services axed. Why are my constituents paying so much more for so much less? Minister, will you commit your Government to cutting council taxes next year, or will my constituents, once again, see rises greater than their increase in wages?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, the level of council tax is set by local authorities in Wales, but we have continued to protect local government in Wales from significant cuts against a backdrop of reducing budgets from the UK Government. That said, I'm completely aware of the severe pressures that local authorities are under, but they are receiving over £4.2 billion from the Welsh Government in core revenue funding to spend on delivering those key services to which you refer, and we included additional funding in the final budget, so the settlement saw an increase of 0.2 per cent on a like-for-like basis as compared to last year. So, clearly, these are challenging times.
But, in terms of the average band D council tax rate, it's £159 lower than the average band D council tax rate in England. And we've also allowed local authorities to maintain maximum flexibility in managing their budgets throughout the period of austerity, so we haven't imposed national limits on budget increases, but we do recognise that that's a matter for local determination. Also, we don't require local authorities to conduct costly referenda or to ring-fence funding raised through council tax for specific purposes. So, we do try to give local authorities the maximum flexibility that we can, whilst also trying to make council tax fairer. So, we've got rid of the sanction of imprisonment for the non-payment of council tax. We've legislated to ensure that all care leavers in Wales are exempt from council tax until their twenty-fifth birthday, and we're also continuing with our council tax reduction scheme, which means, as part of the 280,000 households that have help, 220,000 of those pay nothing at all. We're constantly working to find more ways to make council tax fairer, working in partnership with local authorities to do so.

Victims of Domestic Violence

Mark Isherwood AC: 8. What consideration did the Minister give to helping victims of domestic violence when drafting the final budget 2019-20? OAQ54094

Rebecca Evans AC: In 2019-20, we have provided £15 million to support victims of all forms of violence, including domestic abuse, violence against women, and sexual violence in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, as Welsh Women's Aid said last month, access to specialist support, where and when survivors of abuse need it, is critical to enable women and girls to achieve safety and reach their full potential. But although there's a Welsh Government commitment to deliver secure and sustainable funding for specialist services, and we have commissioning guidance, secure funding for specialist services is yet to be delivered in many areas of Wales. And, of course, figures published last November from the Office for National Statistics quoted the crime survey for England and Wales, showing 2 million victims in England and Wales last year: 65 per cent women, 35 per cent men—where men are three times as likely as women to not report abuse because of feelings of shame, embarrassment, denial and stereotypes of masculinity, and men in Wales are four times more likely to die by suicide than women.
How, therefore, will you respond, or are you considering to respond, to the reports by BBC Wales in March that the Welsh charity Calan has seen a significant increase in male victims coming forward, replicating the findings of the work of the wonderful charities, KIM Inspire in Holywell, the domestic abuse safety unit in Deeside, and others, so that the concerns of Welsh Women's Aid for women and girl victims and survivors, but also the growing concerns being expressed regarding male victims, can be addressed through the appropriate support services in the future?

Rebecca Evans AC: I was grateful to you for raising the joint report on supporting disabled people experiencing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence here in the Chamber during business questions last month, and I know that, since then, the Minister with responsibility for this agenda had the opportunity to look at the report and has written to Welsh Women's Aid in order to set out what the Government might be able to do in terms of responding to that particular report.
The Welsh Government is committed to tackling all forms of gender-based violence, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and supporting all victims of domestic abuse. We do recognise that whilst it is a disproportionate experience for women and girls, it doesn't mean that violence and abuse directed to men and boys isn't perpetrated, because anybody can be affected by these issues. Welsh Government funds projects in Wales providing support services for male victims, including the Live Fear Free helplineand project Dyn. The helpline is gender responsive and includes targeted information specifically for male victims, and the Dyn project provides accessible support to all men who experience domestic abuse in Wales, regardless of age, gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. And we also have statutory guidance, which sets out core commissioning principles on which regional commissioning strategies should be based, and, again, that's about ensuring that all victims, regardless of their gender or their background, are able to access support.

Thank you, Minister.

3. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Mark Isherwood.

Welsh International Trade

Mark Isherwood AC: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting Welsh international trade? OAQ54093

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch. We're actively working with companies across Wales to support them to grow their exports and are leveraging our international connections to link them with opportunities.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Accordingto media coverage, as Brussels has signed new trade deals around the world, goods from partner countries can enter the EU at reduced or zero-tariff rates and then flow free into Turkey, which, although not in the EU, is in the customs union for goods. Turkish companies don't benefit from reciprocal tariff cuts when exporting to those countries because Ankara is not part of the EU, and it's reported that Ankara, the Turkish Government, therefore started imposing protective tariffs on a number of imports for the EU last year, and concerns were raised about the implications for the UK and Wales, therefore, if we remained in the customs union, outside the EU, in the future. Similarly, The Guardianeconomic editor stated in April that those who argue that Britain would be better off negotiating its own trade deals have a point, because the EU is not especially interested in liberalising where it's weak but the UK is strong—in this case, in services. That was an interesting angle coming from The Guardian. So, in considering how the Welsh Government will develop international trade in a post-Brexit environment, how will it take into account these practical considerations, as highlighted by academics and others over recent months?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think the first thing to say is that you're absolutely right in identifying that Turkey actually is in a customs union with the European Union. But I think what's important for us to note is that the relationship that matters most is our relationship with the European Union—60 per cent of our trade in goods is with the European Union. And therefore, what's important is that we understand that any loss in that market, even for a short period of time, would have a hugely damaging effect on our market here in Wales. What is of interest to me is that, actually, one of the leaders in the Tory party leadership election at the moment is suggesting that there is a possibility that we could have a scenario where we don't pay any tariffs during an implementation period. That has been comprehensibly rubbished by the Bank of England and by the European Union, so I think if the Member wants to ask about trade deals in the future, he has to understand that the most important deal is with the European Union, and at the moment, that deal seems a long way away.

Cadw-owned Land

Hefin David AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on measures to manage Cadw-owned land? OAQ54120

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you for that question. Cadw manages historic properties that are in the ownership or guardianship of Welsh Ministers in accordance with its published conservation principles. Cadw’s management also reflects its statutory duties in areas such as public health and safety and Welsh Government policy agendas, including sustainability.

Hefin David AC: On Friday last week, Wayne David MP and I met with Cadw, particularly to discuss this issue, and they confirmed on the evening of 16 May they'd approved contractors to shoot a number of birds within the grounds of Caerphilly castle in order to control their numbers. There was a witness to this, and the witness posted pictures on social media, and these were carried by the Caerphilly Observer. As a result, there was something of a public outcry regarding the shooting of birds at the castle. Cadw unilaterally decided to suspend this approach, and they've told us that they've suspended it pending the outcome of a review of how they control bird populations on the castle grounds. It's emerged that Cadw have been able to use this as a means for some considerable time under the terms of a general licence awarded by Natural Resources Wales. In England, these licences are no longer awarded as the result of a legal challenge, and that is ongoing. The powers over these licences are devolved, as I understand it, and therefore in the responsibility of the Welsh Government. Will you give us some clarity on that, on those grounds, but also would you commit Welsh Government to supporting Cadw to find alternative ways to control bird populations at places like Caerphilly castle?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you for the way you've pursued this issue. I can confirm that everything that you say factually is correct. The activity of Cadw in controlling feral pigeons is permitted under a general licence derived from the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which, as you say, is issued by Natural Resources Wales. Cadw have trialled a number of ways to control feral pigeons in the past, including using localised netting, blocking up holes in historic fabric—which, I'm sure you appreciate, is rather difficult—installing anti-perching spikes, using ultrasound, lifelike plastic deterrents and even birds of prey. These have not proven as effective as they would have wished, but I can not only confirm that the activity that Cadw undertook was legal, but in view of the concern that has been expressed by you today, and, indeed, by members of the public, Cadw has agreed to undertake a review. They assure me that this review will take place urgently, and that no further activity of the kind that you describe will take place until that review is completed. The review will include detailed advice about the environmental and the public health aspects of the control of feral pigeons, and I will certainly involve you and any other Members who are particularly concerned about these incidents in the discussions, after the review is completed.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: May I put on record my thanks to the Deputy Minister for his prompt response in dealing with the issue of vandalism at the Roman amphitheatre in Caerleon, which is managed by Cadw? I understand that an anti-social behaviour working group, which includes representatives from Cadw, Gwent Police, Newport City Council and the local community, met on 23 May to consider a range of options to tackle the issue. Can the Deputy Minister advise whether any proposals have been forthcoming following that meeting and will he ask Cadw to review security at other sites they manage also suffering from the same anti-social behaviour in Wales?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you for making those remarks. I have not yet seen a detailed report of those discussions, but I can confirm that they have taken place. The issue that we face, and I’ve been to the site, of course—to Caerleon and other historic sites—. The difficulty with these sites is, if you fence them in, then that doesn’t make them attractive for people to visit. It’s a balance, always, between the minimum protection required for sites to ensure that they’re not misused and the deterrent that it would form for people if sites were, as it where, overprotected. So, I still have some faith in the potential of education and, in particular, the involvement of young people in conservation activities themselves—I can see that my colleague the education Minister is nodding—and the various programmes that we have now with young ambassadors and young apprentices within Cadw and in other parts of my responsibilities are ways of introducing young people to the habits of conservation so that they don’t feel the need to cause any damage to what are, after all, very historic sites.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson—Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Will the Minister make a statement on discussions she holds with foreign officials and diplomats surrounding human rights?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Yes, this is something that is important for us as we are developing a new international strategy. And, of course, that will be a factor that we consider. But, of course, when relevant, we discuss those issues with representatives with whom we think there is an issue where it should be challenged.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response. Of course, one of the cornerstones of our democracy here in Wales and, indeed, the rest of the United Kingdom, is this proud tradition of respect that we have for human rights, and it's good to say that we've been a leader on human rights, in many respects, around the world for many, many years. You recently met with the Chinese vice-premier during his visit to Wales, and I was very pleased to see in media reports that you'd been promoting Welsh produce. Can you tell us: did you discuss human rights abuses in China with the vice-premier? You will have seen there have been many abuses in China historically, and I'm sure it was a welcome opportunity that people would have expected you to have taken.

Eluned Morgan AC: Of course, we're very aware of the issues surrounding human rights in China, in particular at the moment with the situation in Hong Kong, and also with the ethnic minorities, in terms of the Uighurs Muslims. So, those were live issues, and, indeed, I did raise the issue of human rights with the deputy premier at the dinner in the evening.

Darren Millar AC: I'm extremely pleased to hear that you raised the human rights record of China with the deputy premier. It's extremely important that we ensure that these are issues that are raised at every single opportunity. I notice that you referred to the Uighurs Muslim population in China. We just had a meeting of the cross-party group on faith this afternoon, and we were talking about some of the pressures that that brings in terms of refugees around the world when there's persecution of people taking place as a result of their religious or political beliefs.
One of the other organisations that's raised concerns with Assembly Members in the past, of course, is the charity Open Doors, which has identified that 97 million Christians in China are at risk of arrest and physical harm. Can you assure the Assembly that every opportunity will be used to raise concerns about human rights abuses where they take place, whether that's in China, Turkey or any other country, when you have the opportunity to meet with officials and diplomats in the future?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I can give you an assurance that, when we met with Turkey recently, the issue of human rights was very much at the top of the agenda there. And I agree that the persecution of Christians is something that we should absolutely confront. It's not just an issue in China. It's a big issue in the middle east, in Egypt, and, certainly, these are issues that need to be confronted and need to be discussed with the relevant authorities.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Llywydd, earlier this year the Government published plans to make Wales a nation of sanctuary. I welcome this, of course. On Tuesday, the First Minister said that Wales was a welcoming and inclusive nation. Can the Minister outline what her department is doing to promote this welcoming message on the international stage?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Of course, it is important that we do underline the fact that we are a country that welcomes people to our midst. Last week, for example, we had an event here in the Senedd where we welcomed people from Bangladesh who were playing cricket. It was an opportunity for us to say once again that we are grateful that the Bangladeshi community has joined us here in Wales.
This week, you have heard that the First Minister has made it clear that we are an open country and that we do welcome people. He’s made a statement to that effect. It is important, because it does align with the visit by the ambassador from Romania. It was important that he heard that message clearly, because we do have a lot of people who have joined us in our country, who do contribute to our country, and it is very important that they understand that they are welcome. One of the things that we are doing now to promote that and ensure that they understand that there is a welcome for them is that we’ve put plans in place, with the ring-fenced funding that we’ve got for Brexit, to ensure that people are aware of their rights. We have put money aside to ensure that people can visit a centre and ask what their rights are. We do hope that that is conveyed clearly in our new international strategy.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Leanne Wood AC: I asked the question because I'm very concerned about the inhumane treatment of migrants, especially migrant children, on the US southern border with Mexico. At least 24 people, including six children, have so far died during the Trump administration in what can only be truthfully described as concentration camps. The US Government is separating thousands of children from their parents and are detaining them in cold cages that have been nicknamed 'dog pounds' and 'freezers' by the detained children. Their valuables, and even their medicines, are taken away from them, and, while the border patrol have a legal requirement to ensure safety and sanitary conditions, a lawyer from the US justice department recently argued in court that detained children don't need soap, toothbrushes or beds to be safe and sanitary while in border patrol custody. Minister, will your Government write to the US Government condemning these awful breaches of human rights?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I certainly condemn those breaches of human rights. And I think one of the most shocking things for me was that, actually, they haven't kept a clear account of when and who was separated from parents and children, and therefore it's been difficult to get these two groups back together, because of the chaos that is occurring on that border. Of course, we're very concerned to see those dreadful pictures; of course we're concerned when people are determined to build walls. And I think that's one of the things that we're concerned with with the Brexit discussion—actually what happens with that border with Ireland. We know that walls and borders create tensions, and that's certainly something that we don't want to see happening in future. The Member will be aware that, of course, in relation to international affairs, it's the United Kingdom Government that has responsibility, but I'm very happy to make our views clear to the UK Government.

Leanne Wood AC: I welcome the Minister's response to my question. I think it's vital that we hold the US to account, as it's the most powerful state in the world, and is often considered to be one of the UK's closest allies. I am utterly appalled by the UK Government's complete silence on this. I believe that it might have something to do with the UK Government's attempts to cosy up to Donald Trump in the hope of getting some kind of trade deal—a trade deal that we all know would be detrimental to Wales and to our NHS. So, Minister, will you join me now in condemning the UK Government's unprincipled stance on the appalling actions of the United States Government?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think, to be fair, we can't hold the United Kingdom responsible for what Donald Trump is doing on that border. But I do think that it would be appropriate for us to make our views known, and we will therefore write to the Foreign Secretary to let him know that this is how we feel in this—as a Welsh Government. But I think we also have to understand that, actually, the United States is also an ally. There are good friends who are part of the United States. You think about all those students who are going over from Wales to study in the United States. We've had inward investment figures today; the United States is one of the greatest inward investors to our country. And so we have to make sure that we make clear the difference between the United States as a nation and the leadership, the political leadership, that perhaps we are not always in agreement with.

Promoting the Welsh Language in Rhondda Cynon Taf

David Melding AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government promoting the Welsh language in Rhondda Cynon Taf? OAQ54125

Eluned Morgan AC: We are working with a wide range of local and national partners to promote the Welsh language in Rhondda Cynon Taf. And it's a very exciting period, with the National Eisteddfod visiting in 2022, and the menter iaith organising Parti Ponty to promote the language.

David Melding AC: I am very grateful, Minister, that you have referred to the National Eisteddfod in 2022 visiting RCT; it's going to be a key opportunity to build on the 28,000 Welsh speakers who are already in Rhondda Cynon Taf. And I think it's a major opportunity for language recovery in a really important part of Wales, because, if we're going to be a bilingual nation, it's in this area, and others like it, that we need to see the maximum gain. It's also an opportunity for economic regeneration, promoting tourism and the culture of the area. And I do hope the Welsh Government will be co-operating with the council, who already have a plan to develop their strategy up to 2022, so maximum benefit could be achieved from this wonderful opportunity.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Of course, I do hope that people in the Rhondda area are looking forward to that event. I think what’s important to remember with the Eisteddfod is that it’s not just a week-long festival—the preparations are starting now. What’s important about the Eisteddfod is that the legacy does carry on after the Eisteddfod leaves. But it is an opportunity for us to raise levels of excitement in the area about the Welsh language. I'm very pleased that RCT council is taking this seriously, that they have welcomed the Eisteddfod, and that they, as I understand it, have also appointedan officer to ensure that this is something that does develop, not just in 2022, but starting a long time before that event.

Alun Davies AC: One of the ways in which we can promote the Welsh language, of course, is through education, and ensuring that people can learn Welsh and learn through the medium of Welsh. One of the things that I’ve heard over the past few weeks, and I have seen this in my own constituency, is that local councils aren’t willing to pay for transportation for those children who want to attend Welsh-medium schools, thereby enabling them to learn through the medium of Welsh.
I’m very pleased to see that the education Minister is in her seat for this session this afternoon. Could you, Minister, Ministers, work together in order to ensure that every individual and every child can attend Welsh-medium schools if that is their choice, wherever they live in our nation?

Eluned Morgan AC: Of course, this is something that’s very important for the Government. This is a question for the education Minister, in truth, but this is a subject that we have discussed previously. Of course, we are aware that there are two councils where this is something that they’re discussing at present. It is important that people understand that there is a consultation that’s ongoing on whether there should be a cost paid by people who attend sixth forms in some of these schools. I do think that we should encourage people to respond to that consultation, because that’s the best way to persuade some people who perhaps still have an open mind about what should happen in future.

Vikki Howells AC: I'd like to join my colleague, David Melding, in expressing my excitement at the National Eisteddfod coming to Rhondda Cynon Taf in 2022, and bringing important cultural and economic benefits as well, of course, as raising the profile of the Welsh language. I think one of the most important ways that we can actually make sure that we meet our target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 is to increase the number of pupils who access Welsh-medium education. While RCT has a strong track record in delivering that, I think the role of the meithrin is really important in encouraging young children into that sphere.
I've been working closely with a meithrin in Cynon Valley, Cylch Meithrin Seren Fach, which is totally oversubscribed. They need funds in order to expand. They're turning away children and families week after week and they have to access a plethora of different funding streams as a charity in order to try and meet the target that they require. So, my question to you, Deputy Minister, is: what discussions have you had with Welsh Government colleagues to ensure that meithrins can access the funding that they need?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, we have actually increased funding very, very significantly to make sure that there is an opportunity for people to access Welsh language education at the earliest opportunity. That includes meithrin. So, they've had £1 million to expand, and I'm pleased to say that in the past year Rhondda Cynon Taf has actually had £2.7 million specifically to help develop Welsh language meithrin provision in that area. And I think you're absolutely right: if we don't get the basics right, if we can't get people into the system at the beginning, then we're not likely to persuade them when they go into mainstream education. So, this is fundamental. The Welsh Government has recognised it's fundamental, and that is why we are really putting supreme effort into this area, and we are on target in terms of the numbers of ysgolion meithrin that we hoped to open up until this point.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Discussions between the Welsh Government and a Delegation from China

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on recent discussions held between the Welsh Government and a delegation from China? OAQ54128

Eluned Morgan AC: Vice-Premier Hu's visit to Wales reaffirmed Wales and China’s long-standing relationship. Following the positive news on lifting market access for beef, it showcased Welsh agriculture, produce and innovation. The visit included a productive bilateral meeting with the First Minister to discuss opportunities for further collaboration across business, culture and education.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for that answer on the range of things that were discussed. I wonder if one of those items was the issue of climate change and how the two nations on a very different scale, with different degrees of complexity, can actually learn from each other and could show leadership. We know that China has been, in the recent decade, investing significantly in renewables, but it's also building itself a fleet of new coal-fired power stations at the same time. Meanwhile, of course, we have declared not only a climate change emergency but set our challenging zero-carbon targets. So, I wonder, was part of the discussions to do with climate change, not only on the challenges but the opportunities and how we may share experience and both show leadership on the world stage?

Eluned Morgan AC: Indeed I did take the opportunity to speak to the vice-premier about this specific issue, because I do think that China is absolutely instrumental in terms of whether we are going to be able to tackle this issue and keep below the 2 degrees C that is absolutely crucial for all of us. We all know that there was a period where there were two coal-fired power stations being opened in China every single week and it's true that about 69 per cent of their energy is still produced by coal. The Minister was very clear that he understood this to be a very significant issue for his nation. When he was leading a region, he was instrumental, he was telling me, in changing the way that public transport was organised so that there was a shift to renewables. I think it is worth actually dwelling on the fact that, for every dollar that the United States spends on renewable energy, China spends three. So, it is by far the leading investor in renewable energy around the world. The impact on people, particularly in Beijing—he was telling me that the air quality in Beijing is so terrible now that this is something that they are taking extremely seriously.

The Welsh Government's International Strategy

David Rees AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the publication of the Welsh Government’s international strategy? OAQ54122

Eluned Morgan AC: I shall be publishing a draft strategy to go out for full consultation before the end of term.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Minister for the answer? I very much welcome the publication of the strategy before the end of this summer term, because it's crucial that we actually see the direction that the Welsh Government is taking. Can I also congratulate you on the number of meetings you've had with the various ambassadors and other representatives who have come to Wales? But we want to see the strategies, because we want to be able to assess against your targets and your priorities as to whether those meetings are meaningful or not. When I met with the Basque President, he actually identified that they had already identified strategies, and nations and regions that they wanted to work with as a consequence of that. Have you got priorities in your strategy that we can look at and will those priorities be part of that consultation process so that we can have a look at what you're saying, what you're doing and see if they meet the needs of Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I think there will be an opportunity. Can I assure the Chair of the committee that we have taken the contributions of his committee very seriously when drafting the strategy? Of course, some of the things we want to do is to raise the profile of Wales internationally. We want to make sure that that international aspect of what we do helps to contribute to the wealth of our country in terms of inward investment and exports, and we've had some very good news in terms of inward investment into Wales today. But also, we want to demonstrate that we're a globally responsible nation. But in relation to are we going to identify—. Because we can't do everything; I think we have to recognise that. So, we will need to focus. There will be a list of areas that we're hoping to focus on and, of course, people will then be able to give their feedback as to whether they think we have identified the correct areas.

Suzy Davies AC: It's not just the Deputy Minister for the economy who thinks that this Welsh Government doesn't really know what it's doing on the economy. Last year, you said that while the Labour Party is good at distributing money, it was not—quote—
'so familiar with knowing how to generate wealth which can then be taxed and shared for the benefit of the wider economy.'
Now, strategy or no, you're going to be dealing with some very experienced international wealth generators from whom we could learn a lot or who could contribute directly to the economy. Does your Government know how to get them to Wales without us being ripped off? Because episodes like Pinewood suggest that it may not.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I think what's clear is that, actually, we already have a very clear strategy in relation to inward investment. Today, we've heard that we have managed to land 51 new inward investment projects into Wales. That's produced 3,700 jobs. We know that 75 per cent of that amount is because of Welsh Government intervention. These wouldn't have come without us. So, of course, we are anxious to ensure that that success is built upon, and we are of course doing everything we can. It's very difficult to attract attention to your particular place when you're competing with so many other areas, so what we will be trying to do in the international strategy is to demonstrate where we have genuine global leadership, to attract the attention onto ourselves as a nation, to attract attention to ourselves because we are a beautiful country with skills, people—and it's after that that you can start having the conversations that lead on to inward investment.

The Target of 1 Million Welsh Speakers by 2050

Paul Davies AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on what further steps the Welsh Government is taking to achieve the target of one million Welsh speakers by 2050? OAQ54097

Eluned Morgan AC: Since launching Cymraeg 2050, we've been focusing on laying firm foundations, for example, through planning, education and ICT. We're also ensuring that the Welsh language is an important part of all policy areas across Government, as well as looking at strengthening language planning functions in our institution.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, in order to achieve this ambitious target, I’m sure you would agree that we will need to recruit far more teachers who can speak Welsh and teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh. Unfortunately, the number of students who can teach through the medium of Welsh is at its lowest level for 10 years, and only 10 per cent of applicants are able to do this at the moment. Given these factors, and following some of the comments that have been made in this Chamber this afternoon, what are you and the Welsh Government going to do in order to turn this situation around? What discussions have you had with the education Minister to ensure that more students are encouraged to teach through the medium of Welsh?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, we are aware that we need to increase the number of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh. Of course, there is a step before that—that is, we have to ensure that enough people have a Welsh A-level so that they can go on to teach through the medium of Welsh, where that’s possible. We’ve seen that there’s a relationship between the people who study Welsh at A-level and those who go into Welsh-medium education, and we’re trying to encourage more of them. We’ve put £150,000 towards trying to encourage children of the right age to choose A-level Welsh as a subject, so we hope that will make a difference. Of course, you’re aware that we’ve already got an incentive of £5,000 in addition to try to get more people to teach Welsh and train through the medium of Welsh. Of course, what’s important is that we are expanding the sabbatical scheme, and that’s something that we’ve been looking at; it’s not something that necessarily lasts a year. But we’re looking at where people can speak a little Welsh, and we then need to just help to build that confidence. A lot of that work is going on at the moment.

Mike Hedges AC: On a personal level, I'm trying to increase the number of Welsh-speaking teachers by one. Whilst we will not know the number of Welsh speakers in 2050 because there'll be no means to find that out, we'll know the number after the 2021, 2031, 2041 and 2051 censuses. How many Welsh speakers do you expect in the 2021 census? One thing I do know is we're not going to go from 600,000 to 1 million in a one-year period.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, what’s clear is that we have put in place a strategy for the long term. Of course, we have to ensure that we measure our progress along the way. The fact that the annual population survey has demonstrated that now 896,000 people are able to speak Welsh gives us some hope. Of course, we have to be aware that that isn’t the yardstick that we use—we are actually using the census as our yardstick. One of the things that we have to do is to ensure that people who are able to speak Welsh have the confidence to say that they speak Welsh. That is a problem for many people, and I do hope, for example, Mike, that by 2050 you will be one of those people who will have the confidence to tick that box to ensure that you, too, can say that you are one of that million.

Question 7 [OAQ54123] has been withdrawn. Question 8—Russell George.

Promoting Tourism in Mid Wales

Russell George AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to promote tourism in mid Wales? OAQ54095

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you for the question. Mid Wales—canolbarth Cymru—had a successful Easter period, with 40 per cent of businesses reporting more visitors than the same period last year. The Member will also be aware that we have retained, for the purposes of tourism, mid Wales as a tourism region. And I look forward to my contribution personally: I shall be staying at the Caer Beris hotel in Llanelwedd for the Royal Welsh for at least four days.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your answer. You'll be aware of the work on the mid Wales growth deal, which is being supported by both the Welsh and UK Governments, and work being undertaken by both local authorities in Powys and Ceredigion through the Growing Mid Wales partnership. I wonder what conversations you've had with Government colleagues here, or indeed with either of the local authorities, in terms of developing a tourism stream for that growth deal. And also, in terms of supporting the tourism sector and industry in mid Wales, do you agree that, as part of that work, there needs to be a key attraction and pull into the area to support small businesses and local tourism businesses in the mid Wales area?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Tourism businesses of all sizes in mid Wales make a distinctive contribution to the local economy, and it is key that we should be able to support them. In relation to the growth deal, we do expect, clearly, that there will be a strong tourism element within the growth deal. Tourism is a foundational economic activity in the policy of the Government, and the importance of that is that we see the development of tourism as providing an economic stimulus to other aspects that we are supporting strongly, such as the food industry.

Promoting South-West Wales as a Tourist Destination

Dai Lloyd AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government is promoting south-west Wales as a tourist destination? OAQ54130

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much for that question. I’m pleased to say that our research shows that south-west Wales had a very strong response too in the period between Easter and Whitsun—over the Easter period, I should say—and therefore we continue to market the south-west robustly as a place to spend holiday time. As I have advertised one hotel in mid Wales, I should mention Twr y Felin in Pembrokeshire, where I stayed relatively recently.

Dai Lloyd AC: Deputy Minister, I’m sure you’ll agree that ancient monuments could make a big contribution to tourism in any county. However, locally, in Neath Port Talbot in my constituency, there is frustration that a key monument, Neath abbey, isn’t promoted sufficiently as a tourist attraction, and there is concern that it isn’t advertised sufficiently and that there is poor access and signage to it. I’m aware that Cadw has invested in the site to try and rescue the structures, but will you commit to working with local government partners and the south Wales highways agency to ensure that this site is signed and promoted properly in order to make the best of its potential for tourism?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I have visited the Neath abbey site and have seen the work done there to safeguard the building, and I applaud that work, but I do accept that there are some difficulties in terms of accessibility to the abbey. We consider abbeys to be at least as important as our castles in our monuments strategy, and I am more than willing to work with the local authority and, indeed, any other stakeholders in the area who would wish to promote that abbey and who would wish to ensure that the heritage of our abbeys is celebrated the length and breadth of Wales.

The Minister's Recent Visit to Ireland

Jenny Rathbone AC: 10. What were the outcomes of the Minister's recent visit to Ireland which sought to promote links with Wales? OAQ54121

Eluned Morgan AC: I met the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Simon Coveney, and reaffirmed the Welsh Government’s commitment to work closely with Ireland whatever the outcome of the Brexit process. I also met a number of investors and representatives from the business community.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I agree with you, Minister, that trade relations with Ireland are really important to our country. I just wondered if you'd had the opportunity to mention to all the people you metsomething very significant that happened 25 years ago this month. It's something called the Loughinisland massacre, where six civilians were killed and five wounded in a pub while they were watching the world cup. Nobody's ever been prosecuted, but the ombudsman's report in 2016 confirmed there had been collusion between the police and the informers they were using and that destruction of evidence took place. A film about this issue was released in 2017 and subsequently the producers of that film have been arrested on the grounds that they've used information that was leaked to them. But I think it's a very high-profile issue in Ireland, and it was brought over to Cardiff recently by one of the journalists who exposed this. I just wondered if there was an opportunity to discuss this, because, obviously, criminal justice has to be seen to be done and it clearly hasn't been done in this case, because the names of these individuals are widely known in the community in Loughinisland. And I'm sure that the people of Ireland would like the people of Wales to see justice being done in Northern Ireland, because we will never get peace until that happens.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I'm afraid I didn't get an opportunity to bring that up, but I have since looked into that particular instance, which did cause a lot of concern, I'm sure, in Ireland. I think what is important is that, where possible, we really build on the relationships with Ireland. You had the opportunity to meet with the Irish consul that I introduced you to, who's new to Wales. We're very pleased that the consulate has been reopened, because what that does is to give us an opportunity to build on our Welsh export growth, which has been significant. It's 50 per cent higher today than it was in 2017. It's the fourth largest export market that we have, and we've seen a 60 per cent growth in visitor numbers from Ireland. But it's absolutely right, when there are issues relating to justice, and it is important that we look at that, another thing that I've learnt in recent weeks is that, actually, the relationship with the Bala area was significant because a lot of people from the Irish uprisings were actually imprisoned in that area after that event. So, those links are things that, actually, are really important to the people of that country and we need to build on them and build on those relationships, because that shared history is something that I think is very valued.

Thank you very much, Minister.

4. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Assembly Commission. The questions this afternoon will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1, Alun Davies.

Technology in the Chamber

Alun Davies AC: 1. Will the Commission make a statement on the use of technology in the Chamber? OAQ54114

The Commission continues to employ a range of technologies to support Members in the Siambr. These range from the software used to provide agendas, messaging and voting, to the systems used to deliver audio-visual content, broadcasting and interpretation. Wi-Fi is also available in the Siambr to allow Members to access services via their own personal devices.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much. I'm sure Members on all sides of the Chamber will agree that this is a very beautiful and elegant debating chamber, and wholly and entirely appropriate as a home for our national Parliament and a focus for our national conversations. However, since it was designed and built in 2006, we have seen enormous strides forward in terms of use of technology and our means of keeping in touch with our offices and working productively whilst we're taking part in debates here. I'd like to ask the Commission and the Presiding Officer whether it's now time to review and consider removing the computer screens that we have in our desks and ensuring that we have access to Wi-Fi, have access to a portable, electronic means of communication.
I think, all too often, people watching us taking part in debates in this place will see a Member speaking, as I am now, and a sea of heads looking downwards at their screens—[Interruption.] Not that I'm seeing that. Clearly, I can hold the attention of at least half of you at any one time. But, all too often, the impression given to those watching our debates is that more people are intent on communicating on their computers when taking part in those debates. I think it's time now that we review the structure of this Chamber and ensure that we get ridof ourcomputer screens and spend more time debating with each other and less time on our screens.

Just to confirm that Wi-Fi is already available within the Chamber, and Members can use Wi-Fi to access personal devices. As you were making the suggestion to remove the IT equipment on the desks, there were a great many interested people looking up all of a sudden—[Laughter.]—showing me that they may not be of the same opinion as you. Some of you are quite active typists in this Assembly, and I note that when I sit in the Llywydd's Chair.
The last time we asked Assembly Members for their views on whether the IT equipment that was available to them in this Chamber was the right way to carry on for the future was in 2016, and Members were certainly at that point keen to continue with the use of the IT equipment installed here. As you've alluded to yourself, really, Members don't have to use what's in front of them and as any Member is standing on his or her feet it may be useful to remind other Members that they are in shot, in television shot, at that time, and it's probably not a good look for a party leader of any party to have Members of his or her—no, no 'her'—party behind them not paying any attention at all to what the party leader is saying. I know that one group in particular does work as a group in order to ensure that they may be looking as if they are listening to their party leader—[Laughter.]—andI'll let you work out which group thatis next week.
I would say that, at the moment, I don't think that there's a majority view, I suspect, in this Chamber, to remove the IT equipment that we have, but what I would say is that you don't need to use it and what I would always urge, as Llywydd as well as responding on behalf of the Commission here, is that you take part in debate, you listen and you involve yourself in what's happening around you because that's why you were elected to this place in the first place.

Thank you. Question 2, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Phone Scams

Andrew RT Davies AC: 2. Will the Commission outline what action is being taken to end phone scams involving Assembly phone numbers? OAQ54107

The Commission is highly aware of the distress that the issue is causing to members of the public, Assembly Members, their staff and Commission staff. Unfortunately, preventing this from happening is beyond the Commission's ability to control. However, we are working with HMRC, Action Fraud, telephony providers and other agencies in order to attempt to minimise the impact that this is having. The Commission has taken steps to provide the public, Members and staff with information about the scam and the appropriate action to take if their phone numbers are affected.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Presiding Officer, and I'm grateful for the efforts of Commission staff in particular in addressing Members' concerns and staff's concerns, because it's not just Members who are receiving these phone calls—it's across the Assembly estate. I appreciate it's a very difficult one to deal with on the basis that they're coming from across the United Kingdom, as I understand it, the calls, certainly into my office. And if I can selfishly think of the examples in my office, some of them are quite distressing for staff members to have to deal with, because people get very irate when they realise they're talking to, if you like, an official organisation and they link the two together, although they understand by the end of the conversation that it's a scam.
Could I implore the Commission to look at any avenue possible to publicise and make people aware that this is in no way connected to the Assembly in any shape or form? And I don't know whether this is correct or not, but when you look into these things, some people give you alternative views. I have been told that it's easier to scam 0300 numbers, as opposed to the 02920 numbers we historically used to use or our local numbers back in the constituency. I have no knowledge of whether that is correct or not, but I presume that, if you do have a universal code to start with, it does make it easier to tap into, and I'd be grateful if the Commission could give consideration, so that if that evidence is there, we do move back to maybe a more localised coding system that might alleviate some sort of scamming in the future.

Thank you for raising the matter. It is an issue that has caused significant concern, and a significant effort is going in to address the issue, to provide the reassurance to members of the public who ring backand ring into our system that they have been affected by a scam. We're not able as a Commission to deal with this directly. We're dependent on partners and on our telephone system provider in particular and also working with other agencies who can support us in trying to address this issue.
From my understanding at this point, it's not straightforward to move away from the 0300 number, that wouldn't guarantee a solution, and, obviously, would be quite a complex exercise to undertake in itself, but I can give Members the reassurance that this is very much an issue that we are trying to seek a solution to because it is very time-consuming for our members of staff and Members of the Assembly to have the phone calls come through all the time and, obviously, is distressing for those people who have ended up receiving the initial scam messages. So, we're working on every front we possibly can to seek a solution to this problem.

Mike Hedges AC: Well, as somebody who's had at least half a dozen a day, including one from Germany, it is a matter of concern. Really, it is, in many ways, beyond the Commission's capacity to stop it. What the Commission can do and I understand what other organisations do, they have an automated message that comes on saying, 'If you think you're contacting HMRC, you're not, this number has been spoofed and you're contacting the wrong number. Please block this number in future so that you will not get another one.' While that isn't a solution that is going to be successful in the short term, it may start cutting down in the medium to long term. We're not unusual, unfortunately, and lots of big organisations have this happening to them. I think it is something that telephone companies really do need to get to the bottom of in terms of the ability to ensure that doesn't happen.
If you indulge me for a few seconds, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would like to say we did have a Member here who did not use their computer at any time in the Chamber and who refused to use it in the Chamber, and that was Steffan. He said he promised members he would not use it in the Chamber when he was standing for election and he never did. And I'll tell you what, contacting him was incredibly difficult, and Siân Gwenllian did tell me, 'I'm not his secretary.' [Laughter.] So, there are difficulties in not using it. Anyway, thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you. Llywydd.

Yes, and you're right, Mike, to refer to the fact that Steffan, of course, made a commitment not to use the computer himself. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me sharing the information with the Assembly, though, that he did use the Wi-Fi system here to send me requests to speak at times, and that was very dependent on whether my phone happened to be on at that particular time.
The suggestion that you make regarding an automated response in order to intercept the messages is one that we are looking into with the telephone provider at the moment. So, just to reiterate my response to Andrew R.T. Davies, we are looking as creatively as possible to see how we can address this issue, both in the short term, but in order to provide a longer term solution as well.

Thank you, Llywydd.

5. Topical Questions

Item 5 on the agenda this afternoon is topical questions, and this afternoon's topical question will be answered by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport. Russell George.

Construction Company Jistcourt

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Deputy Minister provide an update on what support the Welsh Government has provided to construction company Jistcourt? 329

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. This will be devastating news for the 66 employees and their families and our focus now is on finding alternative local employment for the talented Jistcourt workforce.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Deputy Minister. Given what you have said yesterday that your Government doesn't know what it's doing on the economy, can I ask did the Welsh Government know that Jistcourt was facing any financial difficulties, and, if so, when and what specific action did the Welsh Government take at that time? It would be useful to have a summary of events. I know that my colleague Suzy Davies has been attempting to contact and obtain information from the company since last week, when social media was reporting speculation on the company. And perhaps the Welsh Government is in the same position of not being able to also have contact with the company as well. It'd be useful to know and understand that.
In respect of Dawnus, the Government has stated that no information on support provided through the Welsh Government was provided to any client-based organisation or the wider public or the supply chain, and you've outlined your reasons for that previously. But I think questions still need to be asked around transparency and accountability of the Welsh Government in, effectively, allowing local authorities to pursue contracts with companies such as Dawnus or Jistcourt from a due diligence perspective. It appears as though local authorities, and, indeed, other public bodies have been largely left in the dark about the financial liabilities of these companies in evaluating their commercial potential for public contracts. If they had been informed of the financial liabilities of these companies by the Welsh Government, whilst respecting commercial confidentiality, do you not agree that it would have made a more significant difference to the local authority's due diligence assessments of these jointly funded contracts—jointly funded, actually, I should say, by the Welsh Government?
And finally, Deputy Minister, can you provide a commitment, or a renewed commitment, that the £3.5 million housing project that Powys County Council is undertaking in Newtown in my own constituency will continue to be supported by the Welsh Government? The local authority, obviously, was using Jistcourt as the company to construct that development, and there will now be a delay, obviously, as they now seek new contractors for that project. A renewed commitment in that specific project would be appreciated from a constituency perspective.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I can confirm the Welsh Government had no advance notice that the Port Talbot-based company was entering administration. We were not contacted by the company to advise that they were in difficulty. Therefore, we could not pass that on to Powys County Council. As soon as we heard, we did try and contact the company directly to better understand the situation that they were in and to offer support. Officials have made contact with both the business and the administrator, and former employees within the business have been notified of the support available from the Welsh Government's ReAct programme, along with advice and guidance from Careers Wales and Jobcentre Plus. I also note that, as far as we can tell from a full analysis of the Dawnus supply chain, there is no evidence that we've seen to show that there was any financial exposure to the companies from the collapse of Dawnus. In fact, they operated almost entirely in the social housing sphere.
The situation with Powys, as the Member rightly identifies, is that the company had been awarded the contract to begin work on the £3.5 million development in Newtown, which was expected to start in the last week or so, but the site remains closed. It was a 26 one-bedroomed flat project, the first affordable housing development for social rent commissioned by Powys in over 40 years. They'd secured a grant of £2.1 million from the Welsh Government, under the innovative housing programme, to part-fund the project, and we've been working closely with Powys council, and they're clear that the innovative housing programme funding will not be affected. However, the contract will need to be retendered, which will create a delay in the start of the build, I'm afraid.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: That Powys site, as we've heard, has closed. We think, of course, of all those affected who were employed on that project. I have heard, though, from a number of sources that Jistcourt appears to be continuing work on a contract to install kitchens in council homes with Bristol City Council—a contract, I understand, is worth around £6 million. I wonder if the Minister is aware of that. I'd appreciate any comments on that, and perhaps he could clarify how Jistcourt's work appears to be able to be continuing after it has gone into administration. If the Minister isn't aware of it, I'd appreciate it if he could make urgent enquiries and update us as soon as he can. And also, of course, if it is appropriatefor this work to be continuing in Bristol in some way,why is it not in Powys? Those are the kinds of questions that we could do with some answers to.
Of course, Jistcourt is by no means the first construction company to go into administration in recent months; we've already discussed that. I'd like to ask the Government, though, what wider plans it has just to run a health check on the wider construction sector in Wales. Is there scope for an audit of construction companies to establish which companies may be at risk? Government clearly has to be careful in what it could say publicly, but announcements like this are particularly worrying. It affects many workers directly and, of course, it is recognised that a struggling construction sector can be a flag, an ominous sign of bad news on the way in the wider economy.

Lee Waters AC: I wasn't aware of work still going on in Bristol, and I'm happy to check that. As I understand it, the company is in the process of entering into administration, but has not yet entered administration, but I'll certainly look into that and reply to the Member. It is clearly disappointing to see a company like this enter into trouble, because it is a grounded firm, a part of the foundational economy, and exactly the sort of firm that we want to see what more we can do to support and protect in the future.
As far as we know, this was a result of a business being in distress; this was not a direct result of any external factor we can pinpoint. They had, always, contracts to fulfil, but it is a reflection of the tough business environment it is for firms, especially smaller firms, to be able to survive in the modern environment. We fear that, as part of the developments we're anticipating with Brexit, this may add added stress to all sectors, and those that are already struggling may well find the future incredibly difficult to navigate.
In terms of conducting an audit of all firms, I'd have to look into the practicality of that, because where do you stop, given that we know the potential impact Brexit's going to have? That could potentially be for the whole of the Welsh economy.

David Rees AC: Deputy Minister, as you know, Jistcourt are actually located in my constituency and the majority of the employees live in the locality, and it is very distressing for those employees and their families, but I appreciate the work the Welsh Government is doing to look to how we can ensure that those find other employment elsewhere. But this does highlight, as Rhun ap Iorwerth says, a reflection of the construction sector. We've seen Dawnus, Cuddy Group and now Jistcourt all within the very same region struggling, and some are struggling because of cashflow problems, and those cashflow problems are sometimes because the long-term payments or the payment period in which they get returns for the work they do is getting longer and longer. Can you look at how the Welsh Government can support the construction industry to try and make sure that any procurement the Welsh Government are involved in actually have a very short payment time, so that construction companies can be assured of payment in, at the most, 30 days, because I know that some are actually on 120-days payment, to ensure that the cashflow is minimised so that they can get on with their business? Because as you've rightly pointed, this company had contracts in the millions of pounds. It therefore had a projection. It didn't have the cashflow to keep on going now. I think we need to look at how we can support those types of companies with their cashflow, so that they can continue to deliver on contracts they were winning, because they were winning based upon their experience and the quality of what they do, but they just hit a problem. So, will Welsh Government look at how we can help the sector with that type of problem?

Lee Waters AC: Yes, we'll do some further work on this. We were already supporting the company through the Development Bank for Wales. They had a loan outstanding within the business, which is secured. So, support has been provided from our development bank, but the point that the Member for Aberavon makes is entirely right. We are doing some mapping work around procurement and grounded firms as part of the work on the foundational economy, to see how we can support the sector, and I met with the housing Minister more recently in Llanelli to discuss with regional local builders the problems they specifically are facing. So, we are certainly alert to the problems of the sector, and are looking to see what we can do. I shall reflect on it further and write to the Member about it.

And finally, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, this is yet another blow to my region—the latest in a string of job losses. Jistcourt had been expanding, following a management buy-out just three years ago. And the fact that, despite a strong order book, the company was making large losses speaks volumes about the state of the social housing sector in Wales. We have a housing crisis, yet we are not building enough social housing. What can the Welsh Government do to ensure that we retain a vibrant construction sector here in Wales and ensure that the employees facing redundancy can find other suitable local employment? Will you be encouraging local authorities and housing associations to accelerate their building plans? Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: As I've already said, the company had made no direct approach to the Welsh Government for help. We are now helping the employees to be able to find alternative employment and to retrain. The efforts we are making to accelerate the building of council houses and social housing more generally I think have been well rehearsed in this Chamber, and we certainly are alive to the need to support the sector and to support grounded firms in particular, and that is part of our ongoing work.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

6. 90-second Statements

Item 6 on the agenda is the 90-second statements and the first of these this week is from Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I rise to speak as the species champion for that most beautiful of creatures, the European eel. There is excellent work being undertaken by groups in my constituency, including Salmon and Trout Conservation Cymru and the South East Wales Rivers Trust, supported by members of Merthyr anglers and Natural Resources Wales, to try to restore our eel stocks.
In 2018 we released European eels into the Cyfarthfa lake in Merthyr Tydfil. Those particular eels were bred in tanks in Trelewis Primary School, and yesterday we did the same thing at the Taff Bargoed lake on the site of the former Trelewis drift mine. The conservation project also involves removing barriers, like weirs, from our rivers so that eels can migrate more easily. The European eel is a remarkable creature but, as some of you may have seen on the recent Countryfile programme, it faces a range of threats, including smuggling into Asia, where the eel is a particular delicacy. European eels start life as eggs in the Sargasso sea near Bermuda and spend 18 months floating on ocean currents towards the coasts of Europe and North Africa. They enter rivers and lakes and they spend anything from five to 20 years feeding and growing into adult eels. They then return to the sea and swim 3,000 miles for over a year back to spawn in the Sargasso sea.
As a species champion, I give my thanks to those local groups, volunteers, schools and education centres now helping in this important task of saving the European eel. In this Chamber, I know that there may be some differences of opinion over the EU, but I'm sure that we can all be united in our support for securing the future of the European eel.

Thank you. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: On 23 June 1894, ten to four in the afternoon, two loud bangs were heard in Cilfynydd, the result of a devastating explosion at the Albion colliery. The colliery had given birth to the village. After the sinking of the first mine shaft, the population had increased from 500 within a decade and was around 3,500 by 1901. Yet, on this day, the colliery extracted a terrible toll from the local community. The instant response to the explosion was confusion. The night shift had just started. No-one knew how many men were down the pit. When bodies were brought up, they were, in many cases, so badly mutilated that is was impossible to determine identity.
Altogether, 290 men were killed in the Albion mining disaster, making it the second-worst mining disaster in Wales, and the fourth-worst in the UK. I say 'men', but many of the victims were in their teens. The youngest, John Scott, was aged just 13. The scale of the devastation is also highlighted by the fact that just two of the 125 horses that worked underground survived. The cause was determined to be the ignition of coal dust following an explosion of fire damp. The management exonerated in what many felt to be a whitewash. Albion colliery carried on working, claiming the lives of miners, but let us not forget this devastating disaster that occurred 125 years ago, which touched everyone living in Cilfynydd and changed lives forever.

Thank you.

Committee Membership

We now move to committee membership, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally.

MotionNDM7109 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Dawn Bowden (Labour) as a Member of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Formally.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee Report: Diversity in Local Government

Item 7 on the agenda this afternoon is the debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report 'Diversity in local government'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Motion NDM7099 John Griffiths
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, 'Diversity in local government', which waslaidin the Table Office on 4 April 2019.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to open today’s debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on diversity in local government.I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry either by giving evidence in writing or orally. In particular, I would like to thank those who shared their personal experiences either as elected representatives, candidates or prospective candidates. We were able to hear these voices directly, through our online surveys and our visits to local authorities. It is important to hear the lived experiences of people, and this evidence enriched our understanding.
We know that the more representative councillors are of the communities they serve, the more informed and inclusive their decision making. Unfortunately, women, black and minority ethnic communities, individuals with disabilities, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, the young and those with lower incomes are markedly underrepresented.
Despite efforts to improve the situation, progress has been slow. As the Welsh Government is expecting to introduce its local government and elections Bill later this year, we felt it would be an opportune time to explore some of these issues and suggest solutions in time to be considered in that legislation.
The aim of our report was to identify practical ways forward that we believe could make an important contribution to increase participation from underrepresented groups. We made 22 recommendations in our report, of which 20 have been accepted or accepted in principle by the Minister. Two were rejected.
Our first two recommendations relate to making the most of technology to enable more councillors to participate in meetings remotely. As video communication methods are now commonplace in most workplaces, we would like to see better use of such technology to ease time pressures. This could particularly aid those members needing to travel from other work commitments and those with caring responsibilities. The Minister’s commitment to include provisions in the forthcoming Bill to enable greater use of remote attendance is therefore welcome, and we look forward to scrutinising these in due course.
We heard that allowing councillors to job share with another member, thereby sharing the workload, could be a practical way of making the role more attractive to a wider group of potential candidates. Job sharing works well for numerous roles across sectors, but we have not seen that trend extend to elected politicians to any great extent, though it was introduced for cabinet positions by Swansea council, where responsibility for portfolios is shared between two members. We support the principle of enabling such positions to be shared, and I’m pleased that the Minister has confirmed that the Bill will facilitate job sharing arrangements for members of council executives and leaders.
When provisions are brought forward in the Bill, we would expect to see appropriate consultation on the most effective way of implementing these, including using the experience not just in Swansea, but also in other sectors where they have successfully embedded job sharing into work practices.
We also recommended that the Welsh Government explore the feasibility of allowing job sharing between non-executive members. I acknowledge that this is not a straightforward issue and there are currently legislative restrictions and logistical concerns around this, but I welcome the Minister’s commitment to consider this issue as part of the next phase of the Diversity in Democracy programme. We will follow this up through our future scrutiny work.

John Griffiths AC: We found that the lack of available information on the role of a councillor was a barrier to attracting potential candidates. People will not put themselves forward if they do not understand what the job entails, and this lack of information is also fuelling the notion among some people that a role in public life is not for them. The Minister has committed, through the Diversity in Democracy programme, to identify the scope and components of a campaign to increase diversity among candidates.
Once councillors are elected, it is crucial they receive adequate support to fulfil that role, particularly in dealing with the many pressures they will face. We heard that burnoutamong councillors is commonplace, as constituents increasingly expect their elected representatives to be available 24 hours, seven days a week. I'm pleased that our recommendations relating to training for members on maintaining a healthy work-life balance, and specifying that councillors should not be required to publish their home address on the council website, have been accepted.
Experiencing bullying, discrimination and harassment are unfortunately matters familiar to politicians at all levels. This was a common theme expressed to us as a barrier to attracting candidates, particularly those from under-represented groups. We made three recommendations in this area, including a call for stronger guidance for candidates and elected representatives on what is and isn't acceptable behaviour on social media, and it is important to stress the urgency in bringing about change, and further action is needed to prevent the unacceptable online abuse experienced by so many people. I welcome the commitment from the Welsh Government that it will take whatever steps it can to stand against this behaviour, and I ask the Minister if she would give a brief update today on how the Welsh Government will be taking forward its discussions on this with the UK Government.
We were concerned by evidence we heard relating to councillors not claiming the care allowance they're entitled to for fear of public criticism. This allowance is an important tool to enable those with caring responsibilities to undertake the councillor role, so more should be done to ensure take-up. We heard that local authorities reporting allowances on an individual rather than collective basis deters some from claiming. Therefore, we recommended that they should be encouraged to use the collective figure. This was accepted. However, our further suggestion that local authorities should collect information on the number of councillors entitled to claim the allowance, and how many do so, was rejected. The rationale was that councillors would need to identify how they meet the criteria, even if they did not intend to claim. Without knowing how many councillors are eligible, it's not possible to know the proportion who receive the allowance. I note, however, that Welsh Government has committed to asking the Independent Remuneration Panel for Wales to consider the matter further, and my committee will continue to pursue this in our scrutiny work going forward.
Learning from others who are councillors can provide valuable opportunities for under-represented groups to see that they too could do this important role. We commend the work of stakeholders to offer opportunities for under-represented groups to develop their skills and confidence. This is often done through leadership and mentoring schemes. However, despite positive take-up, some of the evidence we heard questioned their effectiveness. We therefore recommend an evaluation of the various schemes, with the aim of learning from and building on these to maximise their effectiveness.
We know that engagement in politics at a young age is key to maintaining interest long term.I am therefore disappointed at the rejection of our recommendation that a national mock election for young people be held at the same time as Assembly elections. We heard how such an arrangement is in place in Norway, and it means politicians paying more attention to what young people think. The Welsh Government’s response outlines how it intends to engage through education and awareness raising, but the excitement of participating in an election, of being able to voice an opinion, can make a huge impact and can be a catalyst to securing long-term engagement. So, I would urge the Minister to give further consideration to this recommendation.
Dirprwy Lywydd, despite being around half of the population, women only make up around 28 per cent of elected local authority members. Several witnesses, though not all, supported introducing some form of quotas, particularly around gender; one told us that, based on the current trend, there will not be equal gender representation until 2073. Clearly, something needs to change. The attempts to encourage more women into politics have not had the desired effect, and women face greater barriers to becoming elected representatives than men. Therefore positive action is needed. Whilst we haven’t included any specific recommendations in this report, it is an area of interest to us and we will explore these matters—

Helen Mary Jones AC: Will you take an intervention?

John Griffiths AC: I will. Just to conclude this sentence, Helen Mary, we will explore these matters further as part of our scrutiny of the forthcoming local government and elections Bill.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm not sure whether this would have been part of your committee's considerations, John, but would you agree with me that the political parties have got some responsibility in this regard to look at how our own practices function and whether we are choosing women for winnable seats, whether that's at local or national level? I'm certainly sure that we in Plaid Cymru have got a long way to go to perhaps challenge some of the perceptions of our own members, so, as well as considering formal quotas, perhaps we also ought to look at what we are all doing, because that, of course, is the way that most people get to be elected—because they're chosen by a party to be elected.

John Griffiths AC: I absolutely accept that. We did take evidence from the political parties. On the subject of quotas, there were mixed views, and indeed there were mixed views in the committee membership also. But, in terms of positive action, I think the majority, certainly, of political parties accept that principle, but of course the key matter is how it's implemented, and that's where the question of winnable seats, I think, is absolutely crucial.
Dirprwy Lywydd, in this report, then, to conclude, we have made recommendations to help achieve necessary change. In combination with measures being taken by the Welsh Government and stakeholders, we hope these can contribute to increasing diversity so that local councillors are more representative and better reflect the communities they serve. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood AC: Although the impetus for further democratic diversity must be maintained, the 2017 UK general election delivered the most diverse House of Commons ever, with a rise in the number of women, LGBT, disabled and ethnic minority MPs elected, reflecting the direction of travel already set in this Welsh Parliament. However, as our report states, women, black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, disabled people, LGBT people, the young and those with lower incomes are markedly under-represented in Welsh local government, and work seeking to remedy this has not achieved sufficient progress. As the committee heard:
'The under-representation of women in local government is only part of a wider diversity issue. Increasing representation among younger people, those from different socio-economic backgrounds, individuals from BAME and LGBT community and individuals with disabilities remains a significant challenge.'
We heard that access to elected office funds already exists in England and Scotland to assist disabled people to stand for election, but no such fund currently exists in Wales. There was widespread support in the evidence for such a fund in Wales, with the Equality and Human Rights Commission telling us:
'I think it’s really important that we don’t fall behind in Wales in providing that support.'
The Minister stated that she is 'extremely interested' in testing the Welsh Government’s powers in this regard, adding that it was 'actively looking' at whether a fund could be created for people wishing to stand for election in Wales.We therefore recommended that, as a matter of priority, the Welsh Government establishes an access to elected office fund in Wales to assist disabled individuals to run for elected office—and yes, in winnable seats. The possibility of extending such a fund to support other under-represented groups should also be explored.
Although there was, as we heard, some support for quotas, particularly around gender, our report states that not all witnesses were convinced this was the best way forward. The Conservative, UKIP and Liberal Democrat representatives believed that it is the pool of candidates that is the issue, and encouraging a broader range of individuals to stand should be the target. As my party’s written submission said,
'the Conservative Party should do everything possible to encourage as wide a range of Candidates which is as representative as possible of the area it wishes to serve.'
This was further clarified by my party’s boundary review director when he told the committee that the UK party chairman had set a target of trying to get a 50/50 balance on the list. And he said he thinks what is most important is to increase the pool of women candidates. Women2Win are leading the campaign to increase the number of Conservative women councillors, AMs and MPs by providing support, advice and training to women who would like to enter local government, enter the National Assembly for Wales, enter Parliament or just wish to get more involved in politics, thereby ensuring that my party is representative of Welsh and British people, and fairly represents women at all levels of politics. Women2Win Wales is a broad cross-section of women and men from the Welsh Conservatives who want to ensure that women are fairly represented at all levels of politics by being selected for winnable seats.
As discussed in the committee’s report, the use of job sharing between local authority members has been undertaken successfully in Swansea city council. However, despite being supportive of the principle, Councillor Debbie Wilcox, leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, noted a 'slight anomaly' in current legislation, where the Local Government Act 2000 states that the number of executive members may not exceed 10. She also doubted whether greater job sharing between executive members would have a significant impact on attracting a wider range of candidates. However, it is right that the committee’s report calls for provisions to enable more job sharing between non-executive local authority members to be included in the forthcoming local government and elections Bill.
In her evidence to committee, the Minister agreed that the corporate complaints processes in local authorities need to be looked at after I asked her whether a monitoring officer should be prohibited from being party to complaints about a member, as happened in Flintshire, rather than acting in an advisory role. She stated that council officers not only serve the elected leadership, but are also accountable to local authority backbenchers, and that this also needs strengthening in the forthcoming Bill. I hope and trust that she will take forward that pledge amongst the others that she made. Diolch yn fawr.

Leanne Wood AC: I'd like to start my contribution to this debate by stating that I believe that representative democracy should be just that—who we elect should reflect our society in all of its diversity. Given that we make up more than 50 per cent of the population, gender balance in our democracy is vital. But we must also take an intersectional approach to this and make sure that we do whatever we can to increase representation of women from all backgrounds: women of colour, gay and trans, disabled, young and older women, working-class women and so on. I’m supportive of quotas to achieve this balance, but I also recognise that there are practical difficulties as well as the disagreement on the committee, and that’s why we weren’t able to make a recommendation along those lines.
There are significant barriers to overcome if we are to see a more diverse range of councillors, and not the same old grey, white and male caricature that has become the default image of a councillor for many people. And that’s not to disregard the great work that’s done by many councillors across Wales who work tirelessly for their communities. But it is important to highlight this issue at its core. Women, LGBTQ+ people, BAME people, working-class and disabled people are all under-represented, and we can’t remedy this under-representation without tackling sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and all the other prejudices that are, unfortunately, still very prevalent in our society. Austerity and poverty are additional barriers to encouraging diversity in local government. I do hope, therefore, that the Government will look to implement the suggestions that are in this committee report. We must look at those barriers that stop people from standing in the first place, and this can be done by addressing several issues such as accessible meetings, making technology more widely used so that members can attend meetings perhaps via the phone or by Skype, as well as accommodating members with childcare commitments through providing childcare at the meetings, or allowing job sharing, amongst other measures.
A more nuanced approach would focus on eliminating the underlying interconnecting barriers that face people in getting nominated for elected office and conducting successful campaigns. Some obstacles are in the system itself. So, for example, women fare better under proportional representation than they do in the first-past-the-post system, and that's been highlighted by the World Economic Forum. At the last local government election, 98 per cent of the candidates were white, 94 per cent were heterosexual and 34 per cent were women. After the election, only 26 per cent of councillors were women. Further again, disabled people are significantly disadvantaged from standing for office as some may not be able to knock the doors in the same way that some Members here and I can.
Another deterrent for people who want to stand in local government elections is the abuse that people can get on social media. I'm aware that many Members in this Chamber will have experienced this sort of abuse, so we know all too well the kind of effect that that can have. I know of some incredibly talented people who would make very good local representatives, but because of the lack of support and protection for individuals at a local level as well as in the social media world, they are entirely put off. If we want the best representatives, we have to help and encourage them. Therefore, I welcome the recommendation made by this report that the Government must press the UK to ensure strong and robust legislation to tackle social media abuse, bullying and harassment.
We can't escape the fact that change needs to start at the top and we need Government to lead by example. Of Welsh Government appointments between October 2017 and March 2019, all 170 appointments were white. Government should be leading by example. There's a long way to go before we achieve a true and equally represented society, but I hope that the Government will see this opportunity as a start, take this report seriously, and enact all of its recommendations.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I just begin by commending the report—I think it's a good report—and the work that committee members and colleagues did, and the work of the Chair and, of course, the clerks and the support team as well?
One of the things that leaps out from this report, and it's echoed in the comments that have just been made, is the background introduction where it says that previous analysis by a group on diversity in local government established by the Welsh Government, 'On Balance: Diversifying Democracy in Local Government in Wales', noted that the profile of councillors in Wales is predominantly white, male with an average age of about 60. I think that's me. We're not all bad, by the way, but the problem is when we all look like me. [Interruption.] That's right. Most of them look like me. We can be quite good—. Nobody would criticize the late Paul Flynn, who passed away recently in his 80s and was still a highly active Member for Newport. So, there is place for octogenarians as well. But, the problem is, when you've got the majority that are white and male and around 60 years of age, it is distinctly off-putting to encourage diversity.
So, we do need to do this, and I think this report helps us along the way because it looks at practical steps by which we can do it. I welcome the fact that the Government has accepted the vast majority of them and a couple in principle as well. Let me just turn to some of these. First of all, I think it's very, very welcome, on recommendation 20, that the Government has accepted our recommendation about extending the sunset clause in the Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002 until 2050 to allow the continuation of all-women shortlists. I know all-women shortlists are controversial, they're not everybody's cup of tea, but they've been a necessary tool actually in extending diversity within representation. So, we still do need that in place there. We need other measures as well, but that needs to be there.
I welcome the fact as well that it's accepted as a priority that the Welsh Government should establish an access to elected office fund to assist disabled individuals run for elected office. I have friends who would benefit directly from that but at the moment feel that there is a barrier to them running because of the additional barriers that are put on them because of the disabilities that they face. And on the possibility of extending such a fund to other under-represented groups, I think it's highly welcome that the Government have taken that on board as well.
Recommendation 18 was the one around mock Assembly elections at the same time that we have our elections. Now, I appreciate what the Government has said, which is that there was a mainstreaming of this, that there will be a great deal of mock elections in schools and other ways of encouraging awareness and understanding about the electoral process, but there is, as the Chair has said, a real opportunity here, once in an electoral cycle, to excite young people about what we do here. Today, we had members of the Youth Parliament here sitting behind us; there was a different buzz within the Chamber. It would be great to capitalise on that buzz around the Assembly elections with young people directly. So, we're not saying 'instead of'—keep on doing all the other wonderful work, but actually add to it. Have a look at this. Go back and have a look at that recommendation, because I think it is a worthwhile suggestion there.
Let me just turn to a couple of others here. The issues around technology: I'm glad the Government has accepted those, because, certainly, not only as we look at increasing diversity in the workforce, but also, I have to say, if we're looking at more modern ways of communication and also the decarbonisation agenda that we're very strong on as well, we should be exploring other opportunities that don't drag everybody in for every single meeting from the far outlying places of Powys, Ceredigion, or even Ogmore, quite frankly, and saying we should look at alternative ways to use technology. So I'm glad the Government has accepted those recommendations.
And also, on the recommendations around job sharing, let me say that I'm very, very pleased that there's been an outright acceptance of the issue of job sharing with executive members. I was probably one of the most strident members of the committee who said that the same thing should definitely apply to the election of individual members when they stand for election. And, of course, I know there are myriad objections, such as that they'll just outcompete each other and that if you've got two people sharing a job, they'll strive to outdo each other. Well, we have that in multimember wards already. There are ways to do this, by agreement. And frankly, some of those people who face some of the barriers, such as disability, who might not feel that they want to commit to a full-time job as a councillor, might well say to me or somebody else in the future, 'Huw, I quite fancy doing a job share with you. If we can share the load, with your experience, with me coming in new, with the barriers that I face, we will do this.' So I welcome it's accepted in principle, but I'm glad that you're going to look at that. But I think we can go further.
This is a great report that I think will push the agenda on and will help the Government, and I thank the Chair for the way that he's chaired this as well and sought a real consensus around these issues. And I particularly thank the witnesses. They won't be pleased with everything within it, or they'll say we've missed some elements, but I think it's a significant step forward and I'm glad the Government has accepted the majority of the recommendations.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I agree with what has been said by all Members who have spoken so far, and particularly Helen Mary. I agree that we as political parties have a duty to ensure that the candidates parties put up endeavour to reflect the diversity of the communities they're hoping to serve.
I was very proud on Saturday night to see our new Cardiff mayor on stage, on a world stage, for Cardiff Singer of the World, there to welcome the winner and the runners up. That was a great moment for diversity, because Dan De'Ath is—not only did he have the gold chain around him, but he's 6 ft 5 in, so you couldn't miss the fact that he is our first black mayor. So, that is a great role model for future people from the BAME community who think that becoming a councillor might be for them.
But it's a really complicated issue. I agree absolutely with Leanne; we need to do all we can to tackle homophobia, sexism, racism and discrimination against people with disabilities, but it's pretty complicated when you look at the detail. So, why is it that, for example, in Carmarthenshire, they have quite a good balance of female councillors, but in the next-door community of Ceredigion, there are hardly any women who are councillors? And so it's a much more complicatedthing than just ensuring that we have this commitment.
I know that one of the issues that arises is what time councils meet, because I think the urban councils of Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Wrexham all meet at approximately 4.30 p.m. or 5 o'clock in the evening, which suits people who have a job and then can just get permission to leave early on the monthly meeting of the council day. But I can see how people who are in their late 60s, who may have to travel for an hour to get to the venue for the council meeting, may be resistant to meeting in the evenings, because it means travelling in the dark during the winter, and if you're an older representative that can be quite challenging. So, I think there are complexities to this that are not easy to resolve.
I think that our recommendation 1 about allowing remote participation in meetings is really important, particularly for people who may have last-minute caring responsibilities, where childcare has broken down, or where there are huge distances to be travelled. Why would you want to travel for two hours in order to take part in a meeting that was only one hour? You know, that is too great an effort required for what may be an important decision but can easily be taken by a committee member down the line.
I think one of the things that struck me most, which I think I have spoken about in the Chamber before, was that nearly a year ago, I met a group of councillors from three county organisations in Aberystwyth, and I was humbled by the level of dedication of these people, but also shocked that they were doing things that I didn't think they should be expected to do. It's very difficult if you represent a rural community, because everybody will know where you live just because everybody knows everybody. But I thought it was unreasonable that, on some occasions, individuals were being asked to answer the door at seven in the morning and at 10 o'clock at night. You know, that is unreasonable and I think that the officers of those councils should have firmly said, 'Do not do this. It will burn you out. You have to have a life as well.' There was one individual who was even using all his holidays to maintain his full-time job and also do his council responsibilities. I don't think anybody should be doing that. I think that is seriously unwise, and I think that we have to ensure that the payment that is made should allow people to reduce their working hours in order to reflect the fact that being a councillor is quite a responsible job.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Would you agree with me, Jenny Rathbone, that there's also a role for companies that are big enough and public bodies to revert to the old practice of giving people public responsibility leave to be local authority members or to be magistrates? I know some organisations do still do it, but it's a practice that seems to have gone out of fashion, if you like. And while you can't expect a small, local company to do it, I think the big institutions ought to be enabling their staff to participate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Yes, I think it's perfectly possible for large companies to have some designated days set aside for public duties and that doesn't need to be to be a council representative, it could be to be on a governing body of a school or to work in a voluntary organisation, advising them on how to do their bookkeeping or whatever it might be. I think a lot of business in the community does support that sort of activity, but I think it's unreasonable for a small company, with maybe five employees, to let somebody go. I just don't think that is possible. But I think that we need to really press ahead with—.
I think one of the other issues I don't think other Members have mentioned is recommendation 13, which is to ensure that the care allowances that people should be entitled to claim if they've got responsibilities for an elderly or disabled member of the family or they've got small children, I don't think that it should have to be reported that X, Y, Z individual has claimed this amount. This should just be something that's reported by the council as one of the expenses, with the obvious checks and balances that the individual who's claiming this allowance has to be, obviously, present at the meeting they're claiming for.

Can you wind up, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: But that can be done behind the scenes; it doesn't need to be done by making those people subject to criticism.

Caroline Jones AC: I'd like to thank the committee for their report and the excellent work of the Chair and the committee. The fact that our democracy doesn’t reflect our demography is a matter that should deeply concern us all. How can we possibly hope to increase engagement in the democratic process if large sections of the electorate feel they are not represented? At the last council elections, only 42 per cent of the electorate bothered to vote. And it's not just apathy; it's reflective of disengagement with the political process. People are turned off politics and as a result are less likely to vote, let alone stand for political office.
The recent Hansard Society 'Audit of Political Engagement', the latest in a 15-year audit looking at public opinion about politics, our political system and the health of our democracy, found that opinions about politics were at their lowest level ever, much lower than in the aftermath of the MPs' expenses scandal. Three quarters of the British public say our systems of Government need quite a lot or a great deal of improvement. Fifty per cent say that the main parties and politicians don't care about people like them, and 75 per cent say that the main political parties are so divided that they cannot serve the best interests of the country. So, people have more faith in the military and the judiciary to act in the best interests of the nation.
With this level of distrust in politics, how can we hope to encourage larger numbers of women, black and minority ethnic communities, people with disabilities and members of the LGBT community to stand as candidates? There's much ongoing work and support needed to encourage under-represented groups to enter politics and stand in winnable seats; it's of the utmost importance.
While I welcome many of the measures outlined by the committee in its recommendations, as they will make it easier for people from under-represented groups to serve as councillors, we are fighting an uphill battle unless we restore faith in our political systems. And that is something that we all have to work on. So, from community councillors to Members of Parliament, we must show that we are here to work for our constituents, not to score cheap party-political shots off each other. We must show the electorate that we are here to carry out their wishes, that they are our masters and not the other way around.
And we have to act like grown-ups, because, sometimes, there is hate and vitriol that exists in political discourse that serves no purpose other than—

Leanne Wood AC: Will you take an intervention?

Caroline Jones AC: Yes, certainly.

Leanne Wood AC: Your party leader stood in front of a poster that was reminiscent of Nazi propaganda, and you are talking about hate in politics. I can't put the two together—

Caroline Jones AC: Can I just say something to you? Have I ever turned around and made a personal attack on anyone here?

Leanne Wood AC: I'm asking you about your party leader.

Caroline Jones AC: Let me ask you something. You stood up and made a political point against one of our members here, and she told you outside that you hadn't listened to the full length of the sentence before you stood up and made a comment in front of the whole Chamber—

Leanne Wood AC: Will you address the point I made?

Caroline Jones AC: —and that wasn't right. Have you written to the political leader—

No, no. You can't have a backwards and forwards. Either respond to the intervention by the Member or move on.

Caroline Jones AC: I haven't looked at it. I haven't looked at what you're talking about—

Leanne Wood AC: Nigel Farage and the poster in the Brexit—

Caroline Jones AC: You just said the 'political leader', and I consider my leader here to be Mark Reckless, I'm sorry.

Leanne Wood AC: So, it's not Nigel Farage then?

Caroline Jones AC: Well, he is our party leader—

Leanne Wood AC: Yes, he is.

Caroline Jones AC: But he's not in the Assembly, is he?

No, no. Either answer the intervention or move on.

Caroline Jones AC: I'm moving on, yes. So, we must show the electorate that we are here to carry out their wishes, that they are our masters and not the other way around. And we have to act like grown-ups, as I've just said. The hate and vitriol that exists far too often in political discourse serves no purpose other than to further disillusionment in politics.
If politicians can't act like responsible, reasonable adults and treat each other with respect, how can we ever expect the electorate to support us or even encourage them to become politicians themselves? So, it's little wonder that people are turned off by politics and politicians. However, today, we saw members of the Youth Parliament engaging positively on many political issues and talking to us about their future work. So, this was a positive step in encouraging young people into politics. The Chair has mentioned job sharing, which obviously, again, is a positive step to be looked into more.
At the last Assembly election, fewer than half the people of Wales bothered to vote; in some seats, just over a third of eligible voters actually cast their ballot. And last year we celebrated the centenary of universal suffrage, but what would Emmeline Pankhurst think about the levels of disengagement we are seeing today?
We need to make politics more inclusive, and in order to do that, we have to make it more respectable and respected. And poverty in our communities is, again, a barrier and often enhances inequality. So, the answer to more women in politics is to make politics more attractive to women, and the same can be said for all other under-represented groups. Online bullying is an obstacle to encouraging women into politics, and we must ensure that people have the confidence to deal with this positively. So, we need to make it more appealing for people to become councillors, AMs or MPs, and only then can we trulyachieve diversity in politics.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government, Hannah Blythyn?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, I'd like to thank the committee for their valuable and important work in this area, and I'd also place on record both my thanks and that of the Minister for Housing and Local Government to the numerous organisations and individuals who have contributed in this. We welcome the work of the committee and we'll be voting in favour today.
The Welsh Government is committed to increasing diversity within elected office, working to enable and empower people who want to put themselves forward for election to serve their communities. We know that when our politics reflects our people, our communities and our country are all the better for it. So, working with partners to identify and break down barriers, both in terms of perception and in a more practical sense, and the Chair touched on those practical suggestions that are in the report, which I'll come to shortly.
But I'd first like to touch on perception, both in what political office is and who it's for and who is a politician. Leanne Wood talked about the traditional stereotype of what people see of what a politician is, and I hesitate to say 'pale and male' with Huw standing so close to me, but don't worry, we definitely weren't saying you were stale. But in all seriousness, though, when I was growing up, I never thought I'd be a politician because a politician didn't look like me, he wasn't someone like me and it wasn't something that I ever thought I could do. But actually I was thinking about it recently and I think I may have reached that point, Dirprwy Lywydd, when I've matched the stereotype as I'm approaching middle age, I'm white and I now have a wife.
But in all seriousness, we know that lived experience means that we can serve our communities with authenticity, and the strongest way to make sure our voice and our views of all parts of our communities and our society are represented in the discussion and debate that takes place within our democracy, both within our communities and within our country. In short, a demographic deficit can shape a democratic deficit and lead to a disconnection with our decision making and our democratic process.
But as we've heard today, people can only embark on the journey to become an elected Member if they are aware of what an elected Member is, what they do and how they do it. The Chair has touched on the lack of information out there for people in terms of actually how they could become a councillor and what that involved. So, we need to ensure we all maximise all opportunities to raise awareness of the role and also the value of councillors. We've all heard those negative perceptions and stereotypes of, actually, a councillor who doesn't do anything, they don't work hard, but we all know that across our communities and within this Chamber, people here might be hearing from different backgrounds with a different ideology, but the majority of us want to do our best to serve our communities.
So, during the coming months, we will work with partners to identify key components of our campaign to raise the profile of councillors, the key contributions they make to society and the difference they make to their neighbours and wider communities. We will look to capitalise on this and promote and raise awareness of the practical contributions people have made on the ground and in local areas. And key to any campaign will be to challenge the increasing negativity around politics. But it's important that we address this through a partnership approach.
But as I said, we don't need to just challenge the perception, we have to take action to remove the practical barriers to participation, both at the outset and to enable ongoing involvement. This involves ensuring appropriate support systems are in place in terms of training and development, emotional support and a mechanism to safeguard well-being. There's already a wide range of training and development opportunities available for councillors, ranging from induction programmes to leadership programmes, but as we've heard today, we can always do more and we can build on this. We'll be looking at what we might do to increase and maximise the opportunities, and we're keen to work with others to identify additional areas for attention.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Will the Minister give way?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Yes, sure.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I wonder, in so doing, would the Minister have a look at something that was raised by me on the committee a couple of times—the excellent example provided by Bridgend County Borough Council who, on a non-political, non-partisan basis, did a tremendous promotional campaign about standing as a councillor if you've never thought of it, and then went through extensive training with people about what that meant, what it entailed, how you could overcome obstacles? It wasn't for everybody—some people said, 'Thank you very much but I'm not interested'—but it brought in a whole new batch of people that were not the normal people, some of whom were not aligned politically in any way. So, have a look at those when you're thinking about working in partnership.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Yes, absolutely, and if any Members have any suggestions or examples of best practice that can then be rolled out across councils, across the community or on a nationwide scale, then I'm sure both I and the Minister would be very happy to hear about that. Like you said, even if some people decide it isn't for them, we've also increased awareness of the role of the council in the community anyway. And also, likewise, we need to consider how we better support people who perhaps weren't successful in elections, and they've already shown that interest in wanting to get involved in local politics and the local community. And we've actually seen through the work we've done and through the committee's evidence that perhaps some people have then gone on to use those transferrable skills, perhaps as school governors and in other roles in the community. So, it's actually how we continue that support, perhaps, in the future, so people want to put themselves forward again. And it's really important that we make sure people don't become disinterested through that lack of success—most people don't get elected at the first attempt—so actually making sure we are there to support people and take them through that process.
This report also focuses on a number of important issues, including remote attendance, job-share arrangements and support to assist people with disabilities to run for elected office. These are areas where work is already under way, but we can always build on this work. So, in the forthcoming local government elections (Wales) Bill, we intend to amend the remote attendance sections of the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011 to include provisions to facilitate job-sharing arrangements for members of council executives and leaders. We'll obviously look to things where it's happened—in Swansea—and actually where we can learn from other initiatives as well, as I think Helen Mary said as well. It will include a duty on political group leaders to promote appropriate standards of behaviour, and require local authorities to publish the official address of its elected members, rather than their home address. So, local authorities would need to provide an official office address for members to use on publicity. Members raised the challenge of the rise in online abuse that politicians across the piece unfortunately experience—I know many of us in the Chamber have experienced that ourselves—and I understand that the Minister for Housing and Local Government has just today been in touch with the UK Government, actually, on how we can work to tackle online abuse with social media companies, because I think we're all aware this is something that really needs to be tackled head on and dealt with, because nobody deserves to have that. People make many personal sacrifices by putting themselves forward to serve their community and, actually, we need to respect each other as fellow human beings for what we do as well.In line with this, we will also legislate to remove the need to publish a candidate's address on the ballot paper. Lots of people will know where their local councillor lives, but I think that's extra security in making sure it's not then publicly available online as well, to give people that peace of mind where we can.
We will also write to the UK Government about enacting section 106 of the Equality Act 2010, as proposed in the report, and officials have contacted the Information Commissioner's Office to seek a view on the proposed approach to the publication of reimbursement if costs occur. We are committed to working on delivering an access to an elected office fund for Wales, and that work is ongoing with officials across Government and also with my colleague, the Deputy Minister here.
We should also acknowledge that measures have already been taken to support diversity. Wales was the first in the UK to make legislative provision for family absence for elected members to address some of the barriers to participation in local government for councillors who may have family responsibilities. We do intend to update these arrangements in the local government elections Bill to extend the provisions to those adopting, and we also intend to make it easier to update the absence arrangements as the policy in this area develops. 
Dirprwy Lywydd, in closing I just want to reiterate again how we welcome this important work of the committee and all involved, and look forward to working together to take this forward in the future. I think we can all agree that we have taken steps in the right direction, but it's time to step up our work in this area for all of our people, our community and our democracy. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Can I call on John Griffiths to reply to the debate?

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And may I thank all Members for taking part in the debate? It's good to see, I think, that there's quite a strong sense of consensus in terms of where we are and where we need to go. As was said, the Assembly here, actually, is a pretty good example of how progress can be made and has been made. Although, as we know, there is further work for us to do as well. But, nonetheless, we've got a reasonably good story to tell, which I think puts us in quite a strong position when making recommendations and advising others.
I, like Huw, plead guilty to being in the male, white and around 60 years of age demographic. [Laughter.] There's not much we can do about that, but we can certainly work towards greater diversity in general. What Huw said about Paul Flynn I think is very true—that Paul was very strong in arguing for the octogenarian demographic and greater representation for that age group at all levels of politics, but, certainly, we want to see as much diversity as possible at all levels of government in Wales, and we will work towards that, as a committee, and work with the Government here and local authorities in Wales.
I think Jenny Rathbone made a powerful point in terms of the Cardiff mayor being from an ethnic minority and being on that international platform in the BBC Cardiff Singer of the World competition—how powerful role models can be, and we really shouldn't underestimate that, and the more such role models we have, the better.
It was an interesting point that Leanne raised, I think, about proportional representation and how women tend to do better under those systems. We're not on the verge of any great change in electoral systems in Wales, but it is instructive to look at how particular systems can help or hinder that greater diversity that we want to see. It was also useful, I think, for Leanne to talk about austerity, because we do need to understand the times that we live in and what that means for these efforts to bring about greater diversity, and trying to manage reducing budgets and all that brings isn't a very attractive proposition for any of us. Under-represented groups tend to be struggling with austerity to a greater extent than others and that doesn't help either.
In terms of the politics of the time, I think what Caroline Jones said was very true in terms of, if we want people to engage with politics, the fact that politics is in the lowest level of public esteem ever is not helpful. Brexit and the referendum has been absolutely poisonous to this, in my view, because the referendum split the population down the middle, political parties are split, and UK Government and Westminster are in a state of disarray and chaos—at a standstill. None of that is a very attractive advert for getting involved in politics, is it?

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

John Griffiths AC: I will.

Rhianon Passmore AC: In that regard, do you believe that the media also has a very important elemental and pivotal role in this in terms of how politics, politicians and civil society are portrayed?

John Griffiths AC: Yes, I do. Hannah Blythyn talked about perceptions and how important they are, and that's undoubtedly true, and I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is working with the Welsh Local Government Association to take forward awareness-raising and communication campaigns, and that answers, to some extent, the point Helen Mary made about civic duty, because I think it would address that as well.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I can see that my time is extremely limited, but I must say that I do think there was an air of unreality in terms of what Caroline Jones said. You cannot distance yourself, as an elected Member, from the party that you are a Member of, or, indeed, a party that you were a Member of. And what we hear about betrayal and selling out people and the division and hostility that's created with that rhetoric and those campaigns—again, that's absolutely poisonous to trying to get the engagement and, indeed, the diversity, particularly, that we all want to see.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: The Higher Education Sector

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendments 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected.

Item 8 on the agenda this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debateon the higher education sector. And I call on Bethan Sayed to move the motion. Bethan.

Motion NDM7101 Rhun ap Iorwerth
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes the serious financial crisis facing the Welsh higher education sector, with significant job losses announced over the last twelve months amid concerns as to the financial sustainability of individual institutions.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to commission an urgent review of the financial sustainability of the Welsh university sector.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to give HEFCW an explicit mandate to intervene to prevent the bankruptcy of any higher education institution in Wales in the immediate future, by means of an emergency loan if necessary.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that any public funding to a Welsh university is contingent on vice-chancellor salaries being no more than five times median earnings.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure the adequacy and transparency of university oversight and governance arrangements, especially in relation to the expenditure of public funds.
6. Calls on the Welsh Government to remit HEFCW, and any successor body, to exercise a partnership approach with students and university staff at all levels of decision-making, and to require universities to take account of student and staff views in making staffing decisions.

Motion moved.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Let me start from the outset by saying that we don't want to be holding this debate today. It's not our preference, nor do we take pleasure in coming here to discuss the problems across the higher education sector in Wales, but we feel that this is a debate that needs to be had now, because we support the sector, because it's so integral to our society and the economy. We're not going to be the party that sees an upcoming problem, or even a crisis, and does not sound the alarm, and we would hope that the Welsh Government would feel exactly the same way. Let's be clear, we're holding this debate not only because of the issues that we are detecting on a personal level, or via what's being reported by universities and in the press, but because people on the front line across the sector, including staff, academics and students, are coming to us raising real concerns on a regular basis. We cannot and should not ignore them. They feel, and we agree, that the Welsh Government is not treating the issues coming out of the higher education sector with the seriousness that they deserve, particularly when it comes to the times when I and others have raised some of those concerns in this Senedddirectly with the Minister.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Bethan Sayed AC: Over recent years, there has been a steady drip-drip of news indicating the worsening financial position of Welsh universities. We have seen successive announcements of job cuts for one, at Trinity Saint David, we are seeing news that there is a potential for up to 170 job cuts, Cardiff has announced up to 380 losses over the next five years, and we know that this is on top of prior job losses and restructuring. Lecturers and academic staff, members of the University and College Union, voted almost 90 per cent in favour of strike action last year. There have been job losses and restructuring at my former university in recent years, in Bangor too, and more projected in the future.
We're also in a situation where applications are falling as well. Last year, there was almost a 6 per cent decline in Wales overall. Amongst EU students, the number was a very worrying 20 per cent reduction in applications, and I do hope that if the Brexit Party spokesperson replies in this debate, they'll be honest enough to admit that their preferred policy of crashing out of the EU without a deal will be a disaster for the Welsh HE sector. So, we come—

Mark Reckless AC: Will the Member give way?

Bethan Sayed AC: Well, I was hoping that you would respond to the—[Interruption.] You're not going—[Interruption.] All right, fine.

Mark Reckless AC: I just wanted to say that that is not our preferred policy. We would much prefer a deal, but it's only by being prepared to leave without a deal that there's any chance of getting a decent deal.

Bethan Sayed AC: Well, I'm not sure that everybody in your party believes that, but thank you for the intervention.
We come to this debate too in the knowledge that financial certainty can change overnight. Financial stability at universities depends on this, particularly in relation to borrowing. Now, I understand that the Higher Education Council for Wales plays a regulatory role in this and that, ultimately, lenders would not lend at all under circumstances of a fundamental lack of confidence in certain universities. But we should also admit that the borrowing of some Welsh universities is high in proportion to overall income. In a situation of an economic shock or a sudden and severe decline in student numbers, how vulnerable are we? What about a situation in which loans given on the expectation of a steady income, derived from fees and student loans, are impacted by a reduction in fees and projected income? How will this impact some universities in Wales? These are the realities we need to address. These questions and others are the basis of why we believe we need an urgent and complete financial stability and sustainability review of the whole sector.
The Diamond review was published in September 2016, and there are elements of that that are not yet in place, and the full financial implications of it are not yet felt. But I hear from across many of the sectors that the so-called Diamond dividend is not going to be the magic bullet here—it isn't going to be able to alleviate many of the financial issues now being experienced, because the landscape under which Diamond was produced has already changed.
In my view, we're still some way off experiencing the effects of Brexit. If Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister, which seems more and more likely, what will the effects of that be by October, when he has promised to leave the EU come what may? How will Britain's increasingly tarnished and joke status abroad impact international recruitment and the brand of Welsh universities? We already know that the mere prospect of Brexit and the chaos before we've even left have caused a big decline in EU student numbers.
We're experiencing demographic changes and increasing competition from England. Around 40 per cent of Welsh students leave Wales to study elsewhere, worsening our brain drain and the viability of our HE sector, and I believe this needs to be addressed. The Augar review is going to leave parts of Diamond potentially in need of change too, and if that change resultsin Government change, then we need to understand how that landscape affects Wales, and I'm hopeful that the Welsh Government will tell us how they're going to respond to that particular review.
Just coming on to some aspects of the motion we submitted and the amendments, obviously we will not be supporting the Government amendment. And I understand that the Lib Dem education Minister, with their record on education, particularly when it comes to higher education during the UK Government coalition, will want to be trying to be self-congratulatory. But I think this is too far and doesn't adequately recognise the seriousness of this issue. We will be supporting amendment 4 from Darren Millar.
We believe that there does need to be a wider review of governance arrangements in the Welsh HE sector, which my colleague Helen Mary Jones will touch on further. I note last week what the Minister said regarding her remit letter to HEFCW, but I personally could not find specific reference to conducting a review in that letter. But, having had my researchers ring HEFCW, they've said that they are conducting a general review of arrangements, so perhaps the Minister, in her reply to this debate, can say what specifically that will mean in relation to governance, and how she will be responding to that particular review.
We are calling for the scandal of vice-chancellors' pay to be dealt with finally. It's absolutely preposterous that vice-chancellors get paid more than the Prime Minister. There are arrangements in Scotland in place that help to deal with these issues, but I see no reason why Wales can't deal with it too. We're also pleased to support calls that have been around for a long time from NUS and others for staff and students to be fully involved in decision-making structures at universities, and this would be no surprise coming from me as a former sabbatical officer. The set-up right now isn't sufficient. There needs to be a more inclusive structure written into law, in our view, and a whole partnership approach to higher education in general.
Ultimately, we believe that universities are critical to the fabric of Welsh life and to our economy. There are whole communities, towns and cities immeasurably richer due to their presence. But we do see clouds on the horizon and in our honest opinion—we're all being honest this week, aren't we—we have to truly recognise this and I hope that the Minister does, too.
We've raised these issues in numerous forums in the past, and have been told not to worry so much. I and others believe it needs greater action and urgency. We also believe, as I've called for in the past, this sector is big enough to warrant having a separate Minister for higher education. When we look at the post-16 landscape, the Minister's proposed PCET reforms, I believe this would warrant direct activity by a separate Minister.
So, I reiterate: a sector facing ongoing financial threats and downsizing; a sector potentially, in some areas, over-exposed to borrowing; universities that in some areas are downsizing their very campuses and presence in some parts of Wales. And we have people working in a sector who tell me and others that transparency isn't enough, that governance is not inclusive enough and does not provide the level of strong oversight, vision or direction that the sector desperately needs. Perhaps the regulator would do well to focus on these concerns, as opposed to engaging with me constantly about what the Minister can and cannot respond to here in this very Chamber. The Minister says, and she will say again today, no doubt, that the universities are autonomous, and, yes, we do understand that. But we believe that there can be greater expectations, drive and vision to preferred outcomes. Right now, everyone in Wales, particularly students and staff in the higher education sector, need to be entirely confident for the future. I'm afraid, at this present moment in time, that they are not.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion, and, if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
Delete all and replace with:
1. Recognises:
a. that Universities in Wales and the UK are independent and autonomous institutions;
b. the financial challenges facing the Higher Education sector across the UK, including Brexit and the decline in the number of 18 year olds;
2. Welcomes:
a. the introduction by the Welsh Government of the most generous student support system in the UK, and the significant increases in the number of part-time and post graduate students in Wales;
b. the introduction of a fair and sustainable funding settlement for Welsh universities and the commitment to increase funding to HEFCW in each financial year for the lifetime of this Welsh Government;
c. the sector-wide commitment in Wales to pay the real living wage to all staff, the increased openness and transparency in the reporting of senior pay, measures being taken to address the gender pay gap and the adoption of the Code of Practice on Ethical Employment in Supply Chains;
d. that Wales is the best performing nation in the UK for student satisfaction;
3. Notes the Welsh Government’s remit to HEFCW to work in partnership with the sector to increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income and to strengthen governance and accountability.

Amendment 1 moved.

Kirsty Williams AC: Formally.

I call on Suzy Davies to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete point 3.
Amendment 3—Darren Millar
In point 4, delete 'is contingent on vice-chancellor salaries being no more than five times median earnings' and replace with 'includes conditions to tackle excessive vice chancellor and senior leadership pay'.
Amendment 4—Darren Millar
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to publish the information about the higher education sector's financial position that it takes into consideration before agreeing the sector's annual budget allocation.

Amendments 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and thank you to Plaid for tabling this debate. I move our amendments.
Although we don't agree with everything in the motion, there's quite a lot we do agree with, which is why you can see what our amendments look like. Neither can we simply accept the complacency inherent in the Welsh Government amendment, because actually, yes, they are right in recognising that universities are independent and autonomous; that's why we can't support the more heavily interventionist approach in some of Plaid's motion. But higher education institutes are in receipt of public funds, and for those they absolutely should be accountable, and accountable not just for the spend, but how effective that spend is. We as Welsh Conservatives consider accountability to include universities explaining how spending that money,our money, contributed to the value of a bigger picture, not just what that money was spent on. And questions need to be asked, such as: what would have been lost had Welsh Government not invested, via HEFCW routes or other routes? What sources of other money might have been available for the work? How much could a university raise itself? So, in amendment 4, we do ask Welsh Government to tell us what it considers about the sector's own finances before setting its annual budget allocation, which goes hand in hand, I think, with point 2 of the motion. If the sector's in the trouble that the tone of this debate would have us believe, then it is Welsh Government’s decisions that need our scrutiny just as much, if not more, than those of higher education institutions themselves.
In tabling just one amendment, Minister, you have actually forced us to accept or reject the whole lot. So, I'm afraid we have to reject the whole lot, not least because Scotland might argue a different interpretation of your point 2a, and universities may want to challenge your assessment of their settlement in point 2b. I might also want to push you further on being able to commit to what sounds a little bit like multi-year budgeting for HEFCW. But, strangely, we can't do that for schools. But I’ll leave that teaser for a future debate.
Turning now to the motion itself, the challenges facing the higher education sector are exciting and frightening, I think in equal measure. Yes, some providers in the sector are making cuts; they're realigning finances. They have shrunk that deficit by a considerable margin, for which they should be congratulated, because we recognise that the level of public funds going into the sector has been very difficult for institutions in recent years—too difficult, perhaps, in 2016-17. But, going back to the point, universities are private bodies and they can only complain about public funding to a point. I’ll make this one exception, because, when it comes to research, I think an apparent drop in funding from Government says something about Government's confidence, and that can risk a faculty's, let alone a whole institution's, reputation for original working or partnership working.
The number of 18-year-olds has fallen. The demands of global economies are changing rapidly. Students taking on debt are far less forgiving of courses that aren’t value for money or unattractive to employers. Those Tony Blair 'degrees for everybody' days are now, mercifully, being displaced by a more sensible culture of degrees for those who can gain advantage from them, and something else of equal value for others. And institutions must respond. They must regenerate for the modern age or fail. Diamond and Augur spell out the problem that we are all paying for a supply that outstrips demand, so what universities supply needs to change.
The two universities in my region have been transformed in the time I’ve been an Assembly Member, bringing an atmosphere of ambition to Swansea. And now we may well want to examine whether doing that on the projection of a growth in numbers at a time of a demographic dip was wise, or whether building ambition on the promise of unsecured finances, which—. I'm talking about the city deal here. But I don't think it can be for HEFCW to make good bad bargains if governing bodies mess that up, hence the change in our second amendment there.
But that doesn't let HEFCW off the hook, which is why we've not challenged point 5 of the motion, which calls the bluff of you, Minister, in point 3 of your amendment. Governance needs to keep up with changing ambitions—internally for institutions and for HEFCW. And, if something’s not right, and HEFCW needs more powers or more accountability to help get the sector onto an even keel, then we shouldn't ignore that opening.
I think good vice-chancellors are crucial to the success of universities—which is why we don’t accept point 4 of the motion—but greedy vice-chancellors don't help the reputation of institutions either, and that's something that institutions need to consider.
But I just want to finish on the role of Welsh Government here, because it's got a serious role here, and it's not just about money per se. If it could get a move on with degree apprenticeships, then universities could start offering those and ditch more courses that nobody wants any more. If they're confident in the governance, perhaps they could pick up on the pace of the Swansea bay city deal sign-off, make some of the payments that are due. That would show that some of these risks are worth taking. Show a bit more ankle, perhaps, on the Reid review, because I think our universities still can lead the way to us being an innovation nation, which does know what it’s doing on the economy.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm particularly pleased to take part in this debate today, though, like Bethan Sayed, I wish we weren’t having to bring it forward. Members will know that, until very recently, I was employed by one of our universities, and that was certainly a very good experience for me, as it is for many.
I’d like to start with what I think we can all agree. We can all agree about the importance of universities to the communities in which they’re based, to us a nation, to the economy. They are forums of debate, they are forums where independent thought is brought forward, they produce world-class research, and of course they are educators, and not only for young people, but primarily for young people. Our higher education sector has much that it can be proud of. But I think we can also all agree that the sector is under pressure.

Helen Mary Jones AC: The question before us this afternoon is what is to be done. We've brought this debate forward because the current Government's response seems to be, essentially, 'Nothing is to be done', and that was reflected in their amendment, which tells us that everything is fine. Universities are independent, Government tells us, so let them get on with it. The read-across from that is, potentially, 'Let them sink or swim', and we don't think on these benches that that is good enough, and neither do the students, the families of students, and the workers at universities who speak to us think that it's good enough.
The motion before us today proposes practical ways forward to address some of the governance concerns and the concerns about long-term stability and viability of this really important sector. I want to refer briefly, Llywydd, today to two particular examples, current examples, that illustrate the veracity of our concerns.
No-one will be surprised to see me pressing again about the really serious governance concerns at Swansea. We've raised it here many times and I'm not the only one. We've had these extraordinary suspensions of really senior staff, disciplinary processes no closer to being clear or transparent or resolved than they were almost nine months ago; we now see that there are serious issues with financial reporting. There is no transparency. Students don't know what's going on and the staff don't know what's going on.
The Minister, when we've raised this before, has asked us to take her word for it that HEFCW is on the case. Well, nine months down the line, if I believed it nine months ago, I don't believe it now, and I remain far from convinced. The general point is that something like this could potentially happen in any of our higher education institutions, because, while it is vital that they are independent and that their academic freedom is protected and we don't want them to be totally answerable to Government—nobody would want that—the governance arrangements in all these institutions are archaic, they are opaque. It is very unclear what the powers of the court of the university are when senior management of the university, as they have at Swansea, can persist in cancelling the meetings of the court. There is nobody to hold them to account. Our current governance arrangements, Llywydd, are based on the assumption from the middle of the last century that essentially everybody working in this sector are good chaps and they can be trusted and relied on to conduct themselves honourably. Well, I wish that it were so, but the shenanigans going on at Swansea clearly show that there are some chaps in charge who are very far from good.
We need robust, transparent governance arrangements for our universities that are fit for the twenty-first century and, as Suzy Davies has said, for the very large institutions that we're talking about now, employing hundreds and thousands of people, dealing with thousands and thousands of students. We need those robust arrangements to ensure that the voices of students and staff are clearly heard in those processes and we need more consistency across institutions. This, to me, is crucial if the Government is serious in resisting the English-style marketisation of the sector, which it says that it is.
So, I want to refer briefly to one very current example of financial instability and the dangers that that presents, and I want to highlight here the difficulties facing University of Wales Trinity Saint David. I want to focus briefly to begin with on the example of Lampeter university, as it was, a much-loved institution. Not many of us realise it's the fourth oldest higher education institution in Wales, Scotland and England; I was trying to see whether it was across these islands, but I couldn't get the date for Dublin. It's vital to its community. It plays a huge part, even reduced as it is, and I've been contacted by many constituents who are really, really concerned. We've seen a drop of student numbers and numbers of staff over the years, and there are some people contacting me who are questioning Trinity Saint David as an institution's long-term commitment to the Lampeter campus.
Constituents are also really worried about the potential impact of these difficulties on the further education services provided by Coleg Sir Gâr. This is an example of how these institutions have grown, and they are groups of institutions and they must have governance arrangements that work in that context. We face risks to our further education sector across Carmarthenshire because of financial problems in other parts of the University of Wales Trinity Saint David sector, because the college is part of that group. This is an example of how the fragility of the universities financially can have potential impacts beyond their own borders.
My constituents expect the Welsh Government to hold the university to account for these problems and to be there to support it. I have to say, with regret, that I entirely concur with Bethan Sayed that the Government's amendment is nothing but self-congratulatory nonsense. If the Minister really believes that there are no serious problems in our higher education sector, she is clearly not living in the same country that I live in. She asks us to believe that everything is fine. Staff at the universities know that it is not, students know that it is not, the communities where those universities are based know that it is not. I urge the Senedd to reject all the amendments except amendment 4 and to support the motion as it stands, to ensure a fresh start and a secure future for these vital institutions.

Rhianon Passmore AC: The higher education sector, as we know, plays a critical and vital role in the social, cultural and economic life of Wales, and maintaining and developing a vibrant and successful higher education sector is therefore at the very heart of the Welsh Government's vision in developing a world-class education system. It is unfortunately the case that higher education in Wales, much like the rest of the UK, is facing significant financial pressures. A drop in the number of 18-year-olds as well as international uncertainties around Brexit have also exacerbated these pressures. These are real pressures.With regard to the Tory UK Government's cuts imposed on Wales, this is also significant. The Welsh Government's budget is down £800 million in real terms, compared to 2010-11. And despite these huge challenges caused by Tory austerity, funding to Wales's higher education has actually increased by over £250 million since 2012.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Rhianon Passmore AC: I will, briefly.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Completely acknowledging the scale of that public investment, does the Member agree with me that there are real challenges facing the governance in higher education?

Rhianon Passmore AC: I absolutely concur that there are real pressures and real challenges, but not just for the higher education sector, bearing in mind the topic of this debate.
The radical reforms this Welsh Labour-led Government has implemented in response to the Diamond review are radical and they will create a strong and sustainable funding settlement. This radical and progressive approach will also mean students are better supported. So, we listened to students' concerns around the costs of living, and we will therefore be the first country in Europe to provide equivalent living costs support in both grants and loans to full-time and part-time undergraduates, because we've listened, we heard and we have acted.
And while the UK Government has cut back on grants for English students, Wales has moved further and has fostered support to those students from homes with a lower household income, and this is also right. Labour Governments have a proud record of expanding higher education, opening new institutions, establishing the Open University and improving access for people of all backgrounds. And here in Wales, with the ongoing Diamond suite of reforms, we are continuing that radical trajectory and tradition.
But, of course, in response to Helen Mary's interjection, we also have to and must recognise that there are very real pressures within the sector, in particular the concerns around job losses and the sustainability of some institutions, and that is a great worry to many. But it is also right that Welsh Government has called on Welsh universities to become living wage employers, and I would very much like to underscore that.
So, Minister, I would therefore like to ask what representations has the Welsh Government made to institutions' staff and trade unions around the impact of job losses announced by Welsh institutions. And with regard to the projected Brexit implications on Welsh higher education institutions as well, in particular the calamitous 'no deal' Brexit, what support has the Welsh Government put in place to support institutions through this very difficult time for the sector and, by a result, the Welsh economy?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Certainly, HEIs that are strong are very important economically, culturally and socially, in terms of contributing to our prosperity as a nation. I want to talk about the economic impact of higher education, mainly. It happens on a number of levels, and the problems and the crisis that we face in the sector at present should be ringing very loud alarm bells, in terms of the economic risks.
On the economic contribution to the areas that the universities are in, we talk more and more, as we should, about the foundational economy’s value. In the communities and the regions where the universities work, they are some of the biggest contributors to the foundational economies there. We’re talking about a great number of staff and we’re talking about good salaries for the staff—too high, in some cases, for some vice-chancellors, which is a very important issue to tackle. Where there are hundreds of jobs that have been lost already, the economic impact of that is to be felt heavily. We’re talking about supply chains locally, from maintaining the estate, to food for staff and students and the night-time economy, which I probably indulged in too much. There is a broad economic contribution.
And then there is a contribution that stems from the skills that are provided by the sector, and individuals benefit from learning skills through the HE sector—communities and the whole of Wales benefit from that. Unfortunately, I don’t think that we’ve taken full advantage of that potential. I think that the failure to invest in an HE system that’s effective is part of the reason why we have too many people with low levels of skills, and that leads, then, to low pay. There is potential that has been locked in the people of Wales that has not been released, as it could be through the HE sector.
I’ll use this opportunity as well to talk about the brain drain that we face at present. To be clear, I and Plaid Cymru believe that students from Wales should be able to study in the best universities in the world, and to have an opportunity to live and work overseas, as I did. But, we have to face up to the situation that Wales is suffering a net loss in terms of graduates. Seeing funding systems and the Welsh Government’s policy—through the Seren programme in particular—they do encourage the brain drain. What country with any kind of self-respect and ambition would want to see our best people leaving without making an effort to try to keep them or attract them back here?
So, if we want to support students to go wherever they want to go to gain new skills—as I said, I don’t oppose that—and if we do send money after them, out of Wales, we have to ensure that that doesn’t undermine the institutions that we have, in a financial sense, which leads then to a lack of investment and a risk of a lowering of standards, and making them less appealing to students from Wales, who then consider going to study in England. It’s a vicious cycle that we can’t ignore.
We can’t just say goodbye to students for their university years without (a) tracking them very carefully to know exactly where they’re going and what they’re doing—and it would be good to hear from the Minister about what tracking system is in existence and what the aims of that scheme are, and what schemes we have to keep in contact with the students—and without then (b) having a clear plan to attract them back after graduating, including through using financial incentives.
Finally, research is vital for our universities—research, of course, that drives economic growth. I’ll talk about Cardiff; I have the figures here. As a key contributor to the Welsh economy, in 2016-17 the university contributed more than £3 billion to the UK economy, and more than £2 billion of that was a boost for Wales specifically. Quality-related research is a critical part of this, but expenditure on research and development is falling behind other parts of the UK—falling behind Scotland, certainly. That does affect the ability of Wales to innovate. Cardiff University says that the Welsh Government should, for example, be doing much more to fund what they called challenge-led innovation research, as well as maintaining the QR research. That would go some way towards undoing the disadvantage that Wales faces at present. Very simply, if Wales wants to be prosperous, we have to have a prosperous sector being engendered by universities.
So, to close, it’s clear that the HE sector is vital for our economy. If we don’t ensure the sustainability of that sector, we are sure to pay a very heavy price.

David J Rowlands AC: Following on from the theme explored by Helen Mary Jones, but almost certainly not as eloquently as she has put it, I wanted to discuss the governance of the institutions that are charged with delivering our higher education. Whilst we acknowledge the financial crisis now faced by the higher education sector and regret the substantial job losses over the last few years, we also have to realise that, being autonomous, the higher education sector has been responsible for their own financial governance. Two motions, one by Plaid and one by the Conservatives, have acknowledged the enormously high salaries awarded to vice-chancellors. One has to ask: is this indicative of the general financial controls exercised by the sector? All the institutions in the sector now control enormous sums of money. What scrutiny is applied to their financial decisions? We are all aware of the controversy with regard to the vice chancellor of Swansea University, and yet the details of the inquiry are scant, and they were also late in producing their annual accounts.
We accept the importance of the autonomous nature of these institutions, both in Wales and in the UK in general, but surely we should be able to scrutinise their financial probity, given that HEFCW is the Welsh Government body responsible for funding higher education. The education Minister has already set out how she wants universities to contribute to the Welsh Government's civic mission, and we understand that Welsh universities are responding to the standards she has set for them. Why can't this be done for the financial sustainability and good governance of the universities? We are sympathetic to the financial difficulties now faced by universities, but we are also mindful of the need to make sure that public funds are spent in the most cost-effective manner.
I wish lastly to address the comments made by Bethan Sayed with regard to the fall in foreign students. It is the uncertainty that now surrounds Brexit that stops students coming here, and that uncertainty can be placed firmly at the door of the remainers not accepting the democratic vote, particularly by the Welsh people.

David Rees AC: Will you take an intervention?

David J Rowlands AC: Yes, of course, David.

David Rees AC: Thank you for taking an intervention; I do appreciate that. You've just said the uncertainty is down to the remainers. Actually, following the referendum in 2016, the decline happened then. So, it wasn't uncertainty; it was the fear of what leaving would mean for EU citizens within the UK and their education status. It's not the remainers who have anything to do with it; it's actually the whole process that's at fault.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, I will very quickly reply to that, David. I quite agree that the whole process has been very badly mishandled. And I would not stand here and defend the Tory Government and their handling of the matter. Thank you.

David Rees. You're back on.

David Rees AC: Diolch. I'd like this afternoon to perhaps join colleagues in appreciating the efforts and the commitment of the higher education sector in Wales and the positive impact it has on civil life as well as our economy. As Helen Mary has indicated, I'm proud to have been a part of that before I became an Assembly Member. For many years, I worked in the sector. I do recognise that, over those years since as well, there have been some considerable changes in the sector with respect to the structure and organisation. We've seen an expansion in the number of students, the different numbers of providers available, the provision—the expansion of programmes—and the research has increased dramatically. Greater variation of providers exists in Wales, and there's an increase in the number of HE courses now being offered within further education institutions. There is a whole different set-up to what existed, perhaps, when I left eight years ago.
Now, a significant feature of this changing landscape has been a trend towards greater consolidation with the merger—. We now see eight universities. You mentioned the University of Wales Trinity Saint David. Well, that was, of course, Lampeter, Trinity college and Swansea Metropolitan University put together—and the University of Wales, actually—and it now includes FE colleges as well. So, there has been a dramatic change, with many FE colleges offering degree courses now as well. So, those FE colleges you talk about actually are offering HE level courses, level 6 courses.
They have some of the highest satisfaction rates in the UK, Welsh universities have, so let's actually congratulate them on some of the work that they do, because the students are actually seeing good provision and a good experience, and they wouldn't have those satisfaction results if they didn't. Believe you me, I've been with students during those results; I know exactly what they say—they'll tell you as it is. So, if they are actually giving you a good satisfaction result, they are seeing universities as offering something beneficial to them and they're happy with that.
Now, I'm not going to hide from the fact of the other aspects, but let's also recognise the voice of the student, because I haven't heard much about the voice of the student in this debate. It's all been about governance. I'll come back to that; I will come back to governance. But let's talk about the students and remember that, because I also highlight—. We talk about health very often; we talk about a patient-centred agenda. Perhaps we should be looking at a student-centred agenda, a student-focused agenda when we talk about education, and particularly higher education as well. And I do recognise, unfortunately, the challenges from governance and financial aspects of HE institutions that exist today, but they're not new, unfortunately. I remember being a trade union officer at the time when the then Swansea Institute was under threat of closure or being basically taken over following questions of governance and academic standards.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm very grateful to David Rees for taking the intervention. You've just talked about how much the sector has changed and how much bigger the institutions now are. You've pointed out that these issues with governance are not new. Would you agree with me that it's now time that something is done to address those problems since they're not new?

David Rees AC: Well, I was going to come on to some concerns I have with governance, and I do agree that greater transparency is required in governance and greater participation by staff and by students. They should never ever be blocked out from taking part in meetings of whichever governing body it is, because I remember being a trade union member on a governing body and I wasn't allowed in certain meetings because it was felt it was inappropriate. Now, that's got to stop; the governance has to be open, has to be transparent, and those voices must be heard clearer and louder. So, I totally agree with that aspect.
We all remember, on financial aspects, universities get their money from various sources. The Brexit Party Member talked about HEFCW. HEFCW's no longer the main funder. Many years ago, it stopped being the main funder. It used to be. All the teaching moneys used to come from HEFW, but it doesn't any more; it comes through student fees. So it's been changed; it's student fees, R&Dgrants and projects, commercial activities—let's not forget the commercial activities they undertake—and a smaller proportion now of public funding through the funds from HEFCW. Much, much smaller than they used to be. They do depend upon student numbers. Student universities actually do depend upon that, home and abroad, and it is very deeply concerning that we are seeing the overseas students declining, particularly from the EU, because that has always been a supporter. Because even though they paidhome fees—[Interruption.] Hang on a minute. Even though they paidhome fees from the EU, they were numbers, they were coming in and they were adding to the experience of the individual students in their programmes.

Mark Reckless AC: Does the Member recognise there has been a significant fall, as he states, in EU students in Wales, but that has not been replicated in England? So, there may be lessons for some universities in the sector in Wales rather than necessarily just blaming Brexit.

David Rees AC: I can't answer on the numbers in England; I actually haven't studied the numbers in England. I'll take you on your word, if that's the case. But I think what we are seeing is that we used to have a very good relationship with many institutions in Europe, and students would come over. Now, if the fall in EU students in Wales is happening, what we've got to say is, 'Why?' And it's not because of the relationship or the experience they get here; it's because students are very worried about the consequences of Brexit—end of—and that's a fact. So, we have addressed that.
I do want to highlight one thing, Llywydd, before I go, because I haven't talked about it and I think it's very important. We don't always mention the pathway of part-time study. It is important to many people, and I want take the opportunity today to add my congratulations to the Open University on its fiftieth anniversary. The work they do is fantastic, and I welcome very much the way the Welsh Government is now supporting part-time students on their pathways, because that is another avenue that universities have been following. They are looking at the expansion of pathways on the part-time programmes, and that is crucial. I think, for Welsh citizens, we should welcome and congratulate the expansion of that to so many people because people in work, people who want to part-time study, if people want to get back into work, people who want to raise their prospects and opportunities, part-time work is very often there and we tend to forget about that sometimes. And universities are huge in that and they work with FE colleges as well in delivering a combination of programmes.
Llywydd, I will conclude because I see my time is well up. I do agree that we need to have and look at the governance. I do think there is a question on how we ensure transparency and openness is available to us, but there are some points in there I disagree with in the motion. On the vice-chancellors' salary, by the way, yes, I totally agree. Sorry. I do think we need to do something about it, but let's not forget the benefits they get because they'll get a figure, but if we want to attract them, you've got to match them with England, unfortunately, within that competitive market. And if you want good vice-chancellors, we've got to look at the whole university sector across the UK. If we do it just for Wales, we may end up not having the quality of people we want to drive our universities forward.

The education Minister, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Any opportunity to discuss and promote our higher education sector is always a welcome one. And in speaking in favour of the Government's amendment, I more than recognise the challenges facing the sector, including Brexit, the decline in the number of 18-year-olds, and domestic and global competition. But I also welcome the successof the sector and, as David Rees said, a sector that is outperforming the rest of the United Kingdom for student satisfaction, for leading in Wales and across the UK in paying the real living wage to its staff, and for the progress, working with HEFCW, on senior pay transparency and strengthened governance. I am committed to the local, national and international success of our universities. Our institutions are national assets held in high regard throughout the world, and they achieve this as autonomous institutions working in partnership with Government.
Now, others across this Chamber may prefer that universities function as an arm of the Government. We prefer that they take their place in that public square of debate, discussion and discourse, and offer both challenge and contribution to Government thinking for the good of our nation.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for taking an intervention. Has she heard anybody on these benches suggest that we would want the universities to operate as an arm of Government? I thought I made myself completely clear; we want their autonomy and their academic freedom, but they need to be open and accountable.

Kirsty Williams AC: Supporting, Presiding Officer, a sustainable and world-renowned higher education system is a priority for this Government, and we do indeed have a robust statutory framework of regulation in place that assures both the quality and the financial sustainability of the sector. And if some Members need reminding, many people in this very Chamber passed the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015 that gave additional powers to HEFCW to strengthen those arrangements, although that seems to have been forgotten here this afternoon.
Now, we will continue to work in partnership with the sectors and others to advance the interests of our higher education institutions in a UK, EU and global context. Through our reforms to student finance and HE funding, we have provided the security and sustainability necessary to help the institutions meet these ongoing challenges that we have outlined. This system of support is the first in Europe that provides equivalent maintenance support across all modes and levels of study. And what I will not do this afternoon, Presiding Officer, is make any apology for the fact that that student support package is also portable for wherever a student wishes to study.
And I must say, the most depressing bit about the contributions this afternoon is the failure to appreciate the very hard work of our Seren co-ordinators that are providing our young people with such wonderful, wonderful experiences and opportunities.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention? It's not about the individuals driving the policy and working very, very hard on it; it's what it achieves in driving students out of Wales, driving a brain drain, and, as I said, what country would want to do that?

Kirsty Williams AC: What country would want to curtail the ambitions of its citizens to study at first-class institutions wherever they would be? That would be an inward-looking nation, not an outward-looking nation that wants to give its students those opportunities to fulfil their potential wherever that potential may best be supported.

Mark Reckless AC: Will the Minister give way?

Kirsty Williams AC: Yes, I will.

Mark Reckless AC: I've previously questioned a number of times around the Seren scheme. Can I just say from these benches that we really do appreciate the efforts that the co-ordinators have gone to and wish her and them well with the continued success of the scheme?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, I'm glad that somebody here recognises the hard work and the success of the scheme, but also, apart from supporting those students, our student support package has seen a massive increase in the new applications for part-time and postgraduate students, and that's proof that this reform is working. It's delivering for social mobility, it's delivering for economic opportunity, and it is delivering, crucially, for all students no matter what their background is.
But, Presiding Officer, there is always more that we can do, and so today I can confirm a new bursary scheme to attract Welsh students to do their Master's degrees here in Wales. These bursaries will be aimed at prospective Master's students in subject areas where we know that there is a high demand for postgraduate qualifications. Providing incentives for graduates to remain in or to return to Wales is one of my priorities in meeting our economy's skills needs. This scheme will support our universities to incentivise the recruitment of the most talented Welsh students, in line with our economic action plan and my response to the Diamond review. 
I've also made a commitment to increase funding to HEFCW in each year of this Government, subject to the usual processes. The allocations I have made to HEFCW since the last election have increased from £117.5 million in 2016-17 to more than £151 million in 2019-20. This increase in funding will clearly continue as long as we are able to do so, and it demonstrates our commitment to the long-term stability of the sector in Wales. And, Suzy Davies, I have no intention of showing a bit more ankle, or indeed, any other part of my anatomy, when responding to the Reid review. I have made £6.6 billion available to help support institutions to deliver on that agenda.
Now, since coming into office, I have set clear expectations of the sector and HEFCW in my annual remit letters. I have raised our expectations of what Government investment should deliver from the partnership that we have with HEFCW and the sector. This year, this includes asking the council, working with other administrations where appropriate, to consider whether arrangements regarding academic integrity and reporting on fee income, should be strengthened, and I have asked for a report on this. I've also used my remit letters to encourage greater openness and transparency on senior pay, but also on pay equality and gender pay and other measures to encourage fair working practices. We have already seen progress in reporting on these. Our reporting is more transparent than it is across the border, and I would hope that Members across the Chamber would recognise the work of the sector as good, civic actors.
I'm pleased with the progress that our institutions have made on paying the real living wage to all directly employed HE staff and, crucially, towards implementing it across their outsourced HE activity. I'm also very proud that Welsh universities are the first whole sector to sign up to the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains.
Rather than the picture that has been painted by some Members this afternoon, we have provided HEFCW with enhanced responsibilities in relation to the regulation of tuition fees, monitoring compliance with commitments made in institutions' fee and access plans, and assessing the quality of provision and financial stability through the adoption of a financial management code, which nobody has seen fit to mention. In addition, I have discussed with HEFCW the work they have in hand to strengthen governance arrangements in HE in Wales working with Universities Wales and the chairs of those universities, and I'm looking forward to an update when this work has been progressed significantly.
But, of course, looking to the future, our post-compulsory education and training reforms will establish a new funding and regulatory body that will oversee higher education, further education, apprenticeships and sixth forms. And the commission will have powers related to the oversight of public funds awarded to universities, higher education providers and other publicly funded PCET providers. This will, of course, include ensuring the financial sustainability of our universities. The commission will also have a key role in ensuring that the interests of our learners and their sponsors are protected, that students continue to have a voice in institutional affairs as well as safeguarding the reputation of the Welsh PCET sector through regulatory levers that it will have at its disposal. And given that there is a great enthusiasm in this Chamber this afternoon for regulatory reform, I look forward to enjoying the support of the Chamber when this Bill comes to the floor.
Universities will need to continue to act transparently in the eyes of the commission with regard to public funds, as is currently the case. But I've also been clear on the need for the commission to take due account of the need to preserve institutional autonomy and academic freedom. We must recognise that universities are and will continue to be autonomous bodies despite their vital role in delivering a public service and generating public value. There are, Presiding Officer, some significant challenges ahead, and we need to make sure that we have a system that will enable us to meet those challenges, identify and make the most of the opportunities that arise whilst ensuring that we continue to have high-quality, high-performing, sustainable institutions, and that's why those reforms will be undertaken by this Government.

I call Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, and thank you to everybody who has taken part in this debate. I welcome the announcement that's been made with regard to the Master's degree. Although, I must say, every time I raise issues with higher education, I feel that the Minister is always very defensive, and we raise these issues because, like I said in the beginning, we have heard concerns. And this is not to try and bash the university sector, as it's interpreted; it's to try and raise valid concerns about what we believe can change and can be amended in the sector to suit the needs of the people of Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And it's worth noting that it's the university sector that is feeding us with those concerns that we are able to raise here on the floor of the Assembly.

Bethan Sayed AC: Yes, and that's why we areraising this debate today, and I do not make any apologies for doing so, and want to assure that everything we're saying has been brought to us by people in the sector who want us to raise these concerns and want us to do that in this particular Chamber.
I'm not sure how much time I have, but I wanted to thank Suzy Davies for her intervention in relation to being constructive, and recognising the point in relation to how important research is and the fact that there is a level of complacency in the higher education sector. We need to be accountable. I know we differ, to an extent, there. Where we would differ again, I guess, is where we've seen the Conservatives support more marketisation in the higher education sector, and I think that's where many of these problems do lie, so I truly hope you raise that with your colleagues on a UK level as well.
Helen Mary Jones spoke passionately about her experiences, and I think if you've worked in the sector, you will know first hand how some of these issues have affected people on the ground. Ultimately, they are educators, and people should feel that, whatever they want to study, they're able to do so, regardless of people being forced to think about employment before they're ready to do that. They want to go to university to have the experience of going to university.
I don't really want to get into the governance issues at Swansea here today, I know that I've raised them on many occasions, and there are differing opinions about what is happening there. All I know is that we need to ensure that this process is done properly. I'm hearing that it's flawed, and that's evidence that I've received. I don't want it to be flawed, but that's something I can't ignore when people raise that with me. So, I truly hope that HEFCW are abreast of these particular issues.
And Lampeter—you mentioned Lampeter, well, I spent every summer of my youth there when I was on the National Youth Orchestra of Wales and know how important Lampeter is to the ecosystem of the universities. It's gone from 1,500 to 350 students, and I think that's tragic for such an excellent university.
Rhianon Passmore, you always do a great job in defending the Labour Government, I must hand it to you, and the radical trajectory that you talk about. But, whether you like it or not, I'm in politics because of Labour, because of the introduction of tuition fees by the Labour Government. So, I do remember the legacy that is not so radical as well, I'm sorry.

Bethan Sayed AC: To Rhun, thank you for explaining the economic impact of higher education. You said that alarm bells should be ringing about what’s happening across the whole of Wales, and how important HE is in terms of local economies. I've spoken to people in the sector who are saying, 'If this university were to disappear, then the whole town would die.' So, we have to be alive to that when we're talking about the future viability of the HE sector.
You mentioned a tracking system and how to attract students back to Wales. On the committee that I chair—the Welsh language committee—dentists had come in to talk about Welsh language regulations, and they say that they don't have Welsh-speaking dentists because they all study in England. Well, we have to be concerned about that, surely. We do have to encourage them to remain in Wales to study in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: If I could say, I'm aware of constituents that I have who want to study medicine in Wales, who have gone through the Seren system and attempts have been made to attract them to universities in England.

Bethan Sayed AC: Well, that’s why some of us do have concerns about that system, and it’s important that we raise those concerns about the Seren system too.

Bethan Sayed AC: I don't really think I want to address the Brexit Party concerns regarding Brexit, because we know why people are not coming here—because they feel that they're not welcome and because of Brexit. You can say it's because of the remainers until you're red in the face, but the fact is, people don't want to come here because they don't feel welcome, and we have to own that responsibility. I know people who've told me they don't want to come here because of the way that they feel about Brexit.

Mark Reckless AC: Could the Member explain why they're still going to England in the same numbers that they were before?

Bethan Sayed AC: No, because I'm not responsible and I'm holding the Welsh Government to account, so I want to see the numbers rise here in Wales. But the reality is that is how they feel, having talked to people who want to come to Wales, but feel that there is no welcome for them in that regard.
Then, we had David Rees mentioning a good point about the FE offering, as well. We can't have this debate without mentioning that further education does offer a lot in relation to higher education.
I would say that I mentioned students in my speech, so I think that's integral to what we do in relation to higher education—how they can feel fully included. In Swansea at the moment, when the structures are not happening, how are students supposed to take part in those conversations? When I was student president, those—the court and the senate—were the ways in which we could engage. We sat there and we took part. So we have to ensure that they're not undermined by problems with governance in any of these particular universities.
I'd like to hope that this isn't the end of the debate on higher education. I'm sure after I finish this debate I'll have lots of e-mails from the higher education institutions and from the regulators saying that there's no problem, and everything's hunky dory, and if it's not then I'm hopeful they will be able to engage constructively with us in future as opposed to potentially seeing us as hostile, when all we want to do is improve the situation so that everybody can be proud here in Wales of our higher education institutions.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object?

That was an objection? Yes. I just had to check there, sorry.

I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, so unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to the vote. The first vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on the higher education sector. I call for a vote on the unamended motion, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, no abstentions, 34 against, therefore the unamended motion is not agreed.

NDM7101 - Plaid Cymru debate - Motion without amendment: For: 9, Against: 34, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Which brings us to amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 18 against, therefore amendment 1 is agreed, and amendments 2 and 3 are deselected.

NDM7101 - Amendment 1: For: 25, Against: 18, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendments 2 and 3 deselected.

Amendment 4 is the next vote. I call for a vote on amendment 4 in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 25 against, therefore amendment 4 is not agreed.

NDM7101 - Amendment 4: For: 18, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

And finally, a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7101 as amended:
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Recognises:
a. that Universities in Wales and the UK are independent and autonomous institutions;
b. the financial challenges facing the Higher Education sector across the UK, including Brexit and the decline in the number of 18 year olds;
2. Welcomes:
a. the introduction by the Welsh Government of the most generous student support system in the UK, and the significant increases in the number of part-time and post graduate students in Wales;
b. the introduction of a fair and sustainable funding settlement for Welsh universities and the commitment to increase funding to HEFCW in each financial year for the lifetime of this Welsh Government;
c. the sector-wide commitment in Wales to pay the real living wage to all staff, the increased openness and transparency in the reporting of senior pay, measures being taken to address the gender pay gap and the adoption of the Code of Practice on Ethical Employment in Supply Chains;
d. that Wales is the best performing nation in the UK for student satisfaction;
3. Notes the Welsh Government’s remit to HEFCW to work in partnership with the sector to increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income and to strengthen governance and accountability.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 19 against, therefore the motion is agreed.

NDM7101 - Motion as amended: For: 25, Against: 19, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

10. Short Debate: No motion tabled

The next item has been postponed, but we need one further vote on a motion to suspend Standing Orders.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

Therefore, I call for a motion to suspend Standing Order 11.16 temporarily to allow the next item of business to be debated. I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.

Motion NNDM7103 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends that part of Standing Order 11.16 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order 11.11 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow Dawn Bowden’s Short Debate to be considered in Plenary on Wednesday, 26 June 2019.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

Does any Member object? No, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. Short Debate: Time to establish a legal right to adequate housing in Wales

Which allows us to move to our next item, the short debate in the name of Dawn Bowden. I call on Dawn Bowden to move the motion. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. My topic for this debate relates to a subject that I know is close to the heart of Members across this Chamber, and that is housing. More specifically, I want to propose that this National Assembly should consider making a national commitment to the fundamental principle that every one of us should have a human right underpinned by law to access adequate housing.
I'll present the debate in three parts, if I may. Firstly, the reasons why I believe a right to adequate housing is important; secondly, to consider the ways in which such a right might be framed by Welsh legislation; and finally, to draw some of my conclusions. I've granted a minute of my time to both David Melding and Mike Hedges, and I'm thankful for the cross-party interest being shown in this debate, as was shown in the question to Ministers last week.
In March of this year, I wrote a piece for the Welsh Fabians stating that a safe, warm home is key to personal well-being and the lack of such security is damaging to many people in our communities. Establishing a legal rightto adequate housing could, in my view, take us forward in the journey to address this concern.

Dawn Bowden AC: So, first, let me set out the reasons why I believe that establishing such a right is important. At this point, can I immediately thank those organisations and people who've recently brought this subject to the fore for debate, including Tai Pawb, the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, Shelter Cymru and Dr Simon Hoffman of Swansea University? Indeed, my interest in this idea was sparked by a short article by Dr Hoffman that was published in the journal Welsh Housing Quarterly in July of last year. I’m pleased that I was represented recently at an initial discussion around this idea, hosted by Tai Pawb, actually in the autumn of 2018.
In today’s debate, I now seek to build on my early interest, and to follow up on the feasibility report that was launched in the Pierhead building last week. I can see a number of benefits from establishing such a right. At its most simple level, it would provide a legal framework to the action that’s needed to provide that most basic human right. I'm reflecting article 11(1) of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the right to a home.
Since my election to this Assembly in 2016, I've felt enormous frustration at the range and depth of housing problems in so many of our communities. In Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, as elsewhere, I see the problems that arise from a lack of housing opportunities, the problems of homelessness, and the ways in which too much housing is unaffordable for too many people. In truth, I believe it's a scale of problem that successive generations have allowed to develop, and much of that is a reflection of the failure in the market.
Given the depth and complexity of the problems we're now seeking to address, I do in truth find it easy to become somewhat disheartened about housing, so a positive idea for housing rights is very welcome. I know that the Welsh Government has consistently taken a range of very welcome measures to address many housing issues, and these include: investment to improve housing quality standards; investment in more affordable homes; legislation to regulate landlords; adopting a housing first response; action against the exploitation of private sector renters; funds for innovative construction; the removal of the right to buy; and the review of housing supply, to which I know the Minister will soon reply in this Chamber. And colleagues will recall that I have supported calls to tackle the crime of sex-for-rent; I support the recent call made in this Chamber to scrap the Vagrancy Act 1824; and support the removal of section 21 in Wales, the no-fault evictions that I hope the Welsh Government will soon act upon. And while these can all be seen as important, they are incremental responses to some of the many issues that we face.
So, I believe that the persistent, deep-rooted and erosive nature of our housing problems now require us to consider a new framework for action. I believe that establishing a right to adequate housing is a way of overcoming that incremental and fragmented approach that I've described. It would provide a new underpinning of law that can drive policy and cultural change, and deliver more effective responses. More effective responses that can turn around one of the many key determinants of our prospects in life—a safe, warm home. And I believe that we must also consider the extent to which legal redress should be part of that package of rights. Indeed, I'm sure that when we come to scrutinise a legislative proposal on this matter, it is the issue of legal redress that will demand most careful examination.
The authors of the feasibility report on the right to adequate housing in Wales frame the access to legal redress in the context of the tragedy of Grenfell Tower. For me, that helps to provide a real understanding of what this part of the debate entails. Because, given that we are all now learning about the history of that tragedy, we can perhaps reflect that if the residents had a right to adequate housing and legal redress to their issues through the court process, then the situation may have been different.
I now move to the second part of my debate, and I’ll set out some of important considerations in establishing the legal right to adequate housing. For this section of the debate, I'd like to draw extensively on the work of Dr Simon Hoffman, who I referenced earlier in my contribution. In this Chamber, I believe that we are familiar with human rights and the way in which they underpin our rights as citizens. The recent feasibility report on this right highlights the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which includes, amongst other things, the right to adequate housing as I've already mentioned. So, the question arises as to how we might incorporate such a right in Welsh law.

Dawn Bowden AC: Now, at this point, I believe it's worth noting that in the policy and legislative context of Wales, we are already very familiar with a rights-based approach. Perhaps the most notable for me has been the work in respect of the rights of children and young persons. Those were incorporated into Welsh law via the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. Through this Measure, we know that Welsh Ministers have to pay due regard to the specific human rights of children and young people. This is, of course, an example of the indirect incorporation of human rights treaties, as Government Ministers are not fully bound by them, but must pay due regard to these rights. And that differs in approach to direct incorporation, which is the way the UK dealt with the Human Rights Act 1998.
In the case of direct incorporation, it often means an individual can use their human rights to seek justice in a British court. The recent feasibility report also highlights sectoral incorporation, which means rights are incorporated in specific policy areas. Once again, Wales has experience of this through the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, incorporation of rights can be direct, indirect or sectoral. And incorporation is important, because it brings these human rights into our national legal framework.Following incorporation, Governments and public bodies can be held accountable through a number of mechanisms, including complaints, commissions and commissioners. Such an approach, of course, underpins the work of the Children's Commissioner for Wales.
So, what is the right that we would seek to incorporate in relation to adequate housing? Well, as I've said, it is set out in article 11(1) of the covenant on economic, social and cultural rights, and includes, and I quote, hence the gender-specific language,
'the right of everyone to an adequate standard of living for himself and his family, including adequate food, clothing and housing'.
The UN committee has further defined this as a right to live in peace, security and dignity, and this helps to frame housing as being of fundamental importance to humanity.
There is an important point I should make at this stage, and that is: incorporating this legal right does not require Government to provide housing for all. As Ali from Tai Pawb wrote:
'There is a popular misconception that the right to adequate housing means that the government has to build a home for every citizen. This is of course a myth, it is more about supporting social progress, with special focus on those most disadvantaged'—
what she describes as 'progressive realisation'. But it would require a clear enabling strategy that can progressively address housing problems. Indeed, the sponsors of the recent feasibility report support the idea of taking a mixed approach to the incorporation of the right to adequate housing. That is, they believe there should be both direct and indirect incorporation, so that there is a strong proactive framework for a right to housing in policy making, but also the right to enforcement if that right is breached. I have little doubt that this is part of the debate that needs the most careful examination.
Indeed, I would hope that the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee might hold an initial inquiry to take evidence on these issues in advance of the 2021 Assembly elections. Such evidence could consider international experience within the context of this debate. We can read that Canada has taken this approach with a national housing strategy that commits to approaching housing as a human right. Norway is also making progress with a rights-based approach. Such evidence sessions would help to inform decisions to be made in respect of the sixth term of the Assembly, as I'm not sure there's time for such important legislation, unfortunately, in this Assembly term. But such evidence would also help the Minister, who I know has already expressed both her interest in and willingness to look at this issue, when she spoke in the recent event at the Pierhead building. And as I'm not a lawyer, such evidence would help further improve my understanding of the range of implications of such a law.
So, let me conclude on this point.After this debate, I'll travel to my home in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, and at the end of a long, busy day, that thought provides me with some comfort. I return to familiar personal objects, to some security and safety, and I'll have warmth if that is required. But I also recognise that, in 2019, in spite of all this nation's wealth, this is not the case for all our fellow citizens in Wales, which leads me to conclude, for the reasons I've set out in this debate, that it is now time to consider the right to a statutory right to adequate housing, to improve the prospects that in Wales we can meet a citizen's right to that most basic of needs, a home.
So, I return to where I started, and I propose that this National Assembly should consider making a national commitment to the fundamental principle that every one of us should have a human right underpinned by law to access adequate housing.

David Melding AC: Can I commend Dawn's enthusiasm and the clear way she set out the case for the recognition of housing as a basic human right, and, in this context, the right to adequate hosing being a central principle in which we organise public policy? It would fit very naturally, when we're looking at the most severe need, our housing first policy, for instance, where we're helping those people who have lives that are very, very challenging and often chaotic for a whole host of reasons and are roofless. This type of concept I think would shape the type of approach we want to see to help those people, but also, then, those that are victims or likely to fall into homelessness.
This is the way, I think, of forging a new consensus, which existed between our great parties after the second world war that housing was there with health and education as something every citizen should be able to rely on as something they will receive, and, of course, in receiving it it should be of an adequate standard. I really commend also civic society and the groups that Dawn referred to in pushing this case, holding that event in the Pierhead. I know the Welsh Government is looking at this very seriously and is sympathetic. I can assure you the Conservative Party is as well. I think this is an idea whose time has come. So, congratulations and thank you, Dawn.

Mike Hedges AC: Firstly, I want to say 'thank you' to Dawn Bowden for giving me a minute of her time. It's strange, really, because David Melding, Dawn and I quite often speak on housing and often our speeches are interchangeable.
After sustenance, housing is the next human need. I want to highlight inadequate housing. The 1950s and 1960s saw large-scale slum clearance and large-scale council house building providing housing for people like my family as we moved from privately rented housing. A large number of houses previously privately rented were bought by individuals to be their home. We have now seen many of these bought, some in very large numbers, by individuals often living many miles away to be rented out. I cannot see any way of dealing with inadequate housing except by large-scale council house building. We should also see an increase in the number owning their homes as currently privately rented properties will return to owner occupation. It is not serendipity that the time of a large increase in council housing coincided with a large increase in owner occupation.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This is a very important subject and very timely. This is both the centenary year of the Housing, Town Planning, &c. Act 1919, commonly known as the Addison Act, but also, as Dawn Bowden has said, the recent second anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire. So, I very much welcome the fact that we are debating this this afternoon. The Addison Act has historic importance to this debate, as it was the first recognition that central Government had a role to play in supporting provision of housing for the working class, and of the link between poor housing and poor health. The importance of the Grenfell fire to this debate is that it has come to represent a failure of the system to listen to and act to protect those in need in society.
In my oral statement on 11 June, I updated Members on the work that the Welsh Government is undertaking to advance and strengthen equality and human rights in Wales. In these times of uncertainty and continuing austerity, the costs of which falls disproportionately on those least able to bear them, the refuge and sanctuary provided by the place we call home becomes evermore important. The Welsh Government has a clear commitment to promoting and protecting human rights. It's embedded in our founding legislation. It runs through everything this Government seeks to do.

Jane Hutt AC: You will be aware that we're seeking to introduce a new distinctly Welsh approach to promoting and safeguarding equality, social justice and human rights. We do so, of course, within the scope of our legal competence. The actions we take must be compatible with international obligations, as set out in section 82 of the Government of Wales Act 2006. These obligations include the seven UN conventions signed and ratified by the UK state party. Section 81 of the Government of Wales Act also requires the Welsh Government to act compatibly with the European convention on human rights, as reflected in our domestic law by the Human Rights Act 1998. We're fully engaged in the UN reporting process and welcome and value scrutiny, feedback and guidance from the UN committees. In its 1966 covenant, the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights recognised that, to afford citizens an adequate standard of living, they needed to have access to adequate housing as well as adequate food, clothing and continuous improvement of living conditions. And those state parties, including the United Kingdom, which ratified and adopted the covenant, agreed with this sentiment when they signed up to it.
Whilst it may seem strange that the United Kingdom's Government has, as yet, to incorporate the covenant into domestic law, that shouldn't prevent us from working in the spirit of the covenant here in Wales. Allowing the continuance of insecurity and indignity being suffered by those without access to housing or to housing that's adequate for their needs should be, as a civilised society, and must be a concern to us all. This Government's commitment to the fundamental principle that every one of us has a right to access adequate and sustainable housing is central to the aspirations we are seeking to achieve, and it is good to see the cross-party consensus that is expressed here again, but often expressed in this Chamber, as we debate this important issue.
So, in the Welsh Government's national strategy 'Prosperity for All', we've recognised housing as a key priority, stating categorically that we understand the role of a good-quality affordable home in bringing a wide range of benefits to well-being, health, learning and prosperity. The Government is committed to delivering new social housing and to do so at scale and pace. We understand the key role that social housing can play in ensuring that families and individuals can access good-quality affordable homes that can be their springboard to secure successful futures. Social housing requires a greater level of Government subsidy, but this must be a priority for us, supporting those where our investment can have the greatest impact. We've made a record investment of £1.7 billion in housing during this Assembly term. This is a significant sum, which is having a huge impact on the delivery of social housing.
I'm very grateful also for Mike Hedges's contribution this afternoon to this in terms of tackling housing need and the importance of social housing. Of course, social housing provides not only quality homes but also the support needed to ensure that people can sustain their tenancies and thrive, and that's why Wales has never moved away from support for social housing since it came into being. In fact, in England, delivery of homes for social rent has dropped 81 per cent since 2010.
Further to this, we have our innovative housing programme and integrated care fund. Again, a lot of cross-party consensus; particularly David Melding welcoming that. They, of course, have supported the construction of at least 1,300 homes, helping to deliver on these ambitions. There are ongoing challenges in delivering the number of homes required for both the market and affordable housing sectors, but we are taking steps here in Wales to deliver the homes we need, and we remain confident that, with the help of our partners, we will reach our 20,000 affordable homes target during this Assembly term.
But it's not just the number of homes we build but how we ensure they are of high quality, and here our investment in the Welsh housing quality standard ensures that many of our most vulnerable people live in decent homes, and those homes also need to meet the needs of future generations and be near zero carbon, helping the environment and lifting households out of fuel poverty. And that's why we have set out significant ambitions to drive forward decarbonisation across all tenures of existing housing stock. The Welsh Government has also recognised the importance of ensuring Wales's housing law is fit for the future through the coherent and comprehensiveupdating of housing law. The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 commencement introduced groundbreaking improvements for prevention of homelessness, providing for the registration and licensing of private rented sector landlords and agents via Rent Smart Wales. In addition, implementation of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, simplifying and clarifying contractual arrangements, and the Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Wales) Act 2019, will reduce the cost to tenants when renting a home privately, particularly at the outset.
Dawn's point that access to adequate housing should be recognised as a human right goes beyond just our national boundary, and as such raises issues under the devolution settlement. I'm pleased to be responding to this with my ministerial responsibility for strengthening equality and human rights, and to work with you to take this forward. We're acting to make Wales fairer, beginning with commencing the socioeconomic duty to recognise the impact of poverty in relation to other aspects of equality. In line with this, we're taking forward work to explore options to safeguard equality and human rights in Wales, but we're also commissioning research to explore wider options, and we can take this on board in terms of that research. We will be including how we incorporate the convention on the rights of disabled people and other international agreements into Welsh law, and we have engaged with Professor Hoffman in this respect.
We will take an inclusive approach with regard to protected characteristics, drawing on all available evidence, and this very issue has been highlighted in the work commissioned by Tai Pawb, in collaboration with Shelter Cymru and the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, from Professor Simon Hoffman, associate professor at Swansea University. His feasibility report for the introduction of a right to adequate housing, launched last Tuesday, makes for good reading, powerful reading, and I've no doubt that Julie James will be considering the feasibility study in detail, how it fits in with the work we're already undertaking, and I would hope to reassure Dawn and other Members of the Assembly today that, while waiting for the United Kingdom Government to incorporate formally the United Nations covenant on economic, social and cultural rights into domestic law, we recognise housing as foundational to ensuring the well-being of our citizens. We're also working hard within our devolved responsibilities to reflect these rights in the policies and legislation we've created and will continue to create. Diolch.

That brings our discussions for today to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:47.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

Alun Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's strategy to enhance Wales's global profile?

Eluned Morgan: I was intending to publish the strategy in July, but having received so much valuable feedback, and following my discussions with Cabinet, I have decided to consult on a draft strategy over the summer.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism

Darren Millar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support those participating in sport?

Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-Thomas: The Welsh Government recognises that participation in sport has many benefits, including improving health, building confidence, strengthening communities and teaching people new life skills. Through Sport Wales, our delivery agent, a number of programmes and support services are in place to help people of all ages to engage in sport at all levels.

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

Darren Millar: Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government's budget supports businesses in Wales?

Rebecca Evans: We continue to provide financial support, where needed, to help businesses invest, grow and remain competitive. As part of a capital stimulus package, I recently announced an additional £10 million for the economy futures fund.

John Griffiths: Will the Minister provide an update on the development of the Welsh Government's financial investment policy?

Rebecca Evans: We are committed to effectively investing every pound available to us to boost economic growth and support public services in Wales. This includes creating new innovative schemes to utilise our financial transitions capital, investing in the economy across Wales.

Andrew R.T. Davies: What economic modelling has been undertaken to assess the impact that the declaration of a climate emergency will have on the Welsh Government's annual budget?

Rebecca Evans: The Welsh Government’s decision to declare a climate emergency was informed by detailed analysis of the Committee on Climate Change. Specific budgetary implications will form part of the usual budget-making process.

Jayne Bryant: Will the Minister make a statement on preparation for the 2021 census?

Rebecca Evans: The 2021 census White Paper was laid before the National Assembly for Wales in December 2018. There will be a census rehearsal in October this year, including in Ceredigion. Welsh Government officials continue to work with the Office for National Statistics on preparations for the census.